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mcatdog
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02-19-2006, 01:07 AM
Post subject: Marginal hand against a possible bluff: raise or just call?
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St. Louis
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BB is a mediocre player, really passive but sometimes tries to steal pots when everyone else has shown weakness. 25/5. SB is just terrible. I've been raising a lot of hands when folded to me on the button, trying to either play a pot in position against an awful player, or take down the blinds.
I had no idea what to make of his check on the flop. Normally if someone checks when I clearly expect them to bet, I get suspicious that the flop nailed them (i.e., set), but I didn't think this player would 3-bet preflop with a small pair. I put him on 99+ or a big ace.
PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is Button with 8 , J.
3 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, SB calls.
Flop: (9 SB) 3 , 2 , 6 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks.
Turn: (4.50 BB) J (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero?
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Well i'll try my best to help. The fact that the bb 3 bets makes me assume that he has a real hand. Preflop i would think any pair 9s or better or possible ak-aj. He checks after the flop so i think we can elimanate aa kk and qq. Now on the turn we see a jack of clubs and he suddenly bets. At this point i say he has one of 3 hands. A pair of jack, a flush or a flush draw.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Call turn then raise the river. You are likely to be ahead but if he has you outkicked he may 3bet you on the turn but not so much on the iver. If the river is a 4th club, then call.
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dsaxton
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Call turn then raise the river. You are likely to be ahead but if he has you outkicked he may 3bet you on the turn but not so much on the iver. If the river is a 4th club, then call.
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If you opt to call the turn, what's the value in raising the river?
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Demiparadigm
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Call turn then raise the river. You are likely to be ahead but if he has you outkicked he may 3bet you on the turn but not so much on the iver. If the river is a 4th club, then call.
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If you opt to call the turn, what's the value in raising the river? |
You can safely fold to a river 3 bet, whereas a wider range will 3 bet you on the turn.
Specifically, you win the most when ahead, and are more likely to get to showdown.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
If you opt to call the turn, what's the value in raising the river?
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If you raise the turn, he'll three bet you with better holdings than on the river. But, he may also fold to your raise on the turn when you are ahead, winning you the least when ahead and losing the most when behind. Raising the River will equal out so that you win and lose the same amount on each hand. Also, the good players will give you respect when you win and the bad ones will lose respect for you when you lose.
Not very many players can or will run this line.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
If you opt to call the turn, what's the value in raising the river?
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If you raise the turn, he'll three bet you with better holdings than on the river. But, he may also fold to your raise on the turn when you are ahead, winning you the least when ahead and losing the most when behind. Raising the River will equal out so that you win and lose the same amount on each hand. Also, the good players will give you respect when you win and the bad ones will lose respect for you when you lose.
Not very many players can or will run this line. |
The expectation that players don't raise on the river without strong holdings seems to be precisely the argument for why you shouldn't raise this hand on the river.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
If you opt to call the turn, what's the value in raising the river?
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If you raise the turn, he'll three bet you with better holdings than on the river. But, he may also fold to your raise on the turn when you are ahead, winning you the least when ahead and losing the most when behind. Raising the River will equal out so that you win and lose the same amount on each hand. Also, the good players will give you respect when you win and the bad ones will lose respect for you when you lose.
Not very many players can or will run this line. |
The expectation that players don't raise on the river without strong holdings seems to be precisely the argument for why you shouldn't raise this hand on the river. |
Well, if thats how you think then okay. But I'm not going to walk this through with you or anyone else. This line is too valuable for me to give a step by step instruction on how and why it works. If you use it, good for you but if you don't its your loss.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
The expectation that players don't raise on the river without strong holdings seems to be precisely the argument for why you shouldn't raise this hand on the river.
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dsaxton, I read what elipsesjeff wrote and it made sense to me. But I don't understand your counterargument. Can you please elaborate? Why would the expectation that people don't raise the river without strong holdings make elipsesjeff's logic incorrect?
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thenonsequitur
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
The expectation that players don't raise on the river without strong holdings seems to be precisely the argument for why you shouldn't raise this hand on the river.
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dsaxton, I read what elipsesjeff wrote and it made sense to me. But I don't understand your counterargument. Can you please elaborate? Why would the expectation that people don't raise the river without strong holdings make elipsesjeff's logic incorrect? |
Um, because the other guy won't call with a hand he can beat? Is his opponent supposed to call him with ace high? I don't get it. Supposedly we've established that river raises almost always indicate strong hands, so if his opponent has this expectation, he won't call without a strong hand. How does this not make complete sense?
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
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The problem youre having is that you don't think they call with a worse hand. While that would theoretically be correct, you shouldn't get called by a worse hand, in practice you really really often do.
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poskid_1982
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 392
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EJ...Does this play work here with a 3 way pot? I see the benefits of doing it HU but when he isnt closing the action here is it going to show a profit. You don't need to explain just say yes or no.
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
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If it was three handed I'd tend towards raising the turn
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
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agreed.
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poskid_1982
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 392
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Not to be a dick but do ya'll realize that this hand is 3way on the turn???
PK
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Call turn then raise the river. You are likely to be ahead but if he has you outkicked he may 3bet you on the turn but not so much on the iver. If the river is a 4th club, then call.
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would you run that same line with say an over pair or top pair versus a paired board? Assume that my question is basically the same as the op's question but this time the board pairs on the turn.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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The concept here is a protected raise. Either the board or river properties force our opponent to call with a wide range, but re-raise a narrow range. This gives our raise a lot of value because we're free to value bet smaller edges than would otherwise seem correct.
Here's another example.
I raise black ATo from the CO, SB calls, BB calls.
Flop is: T 7 3
check, check, I bet, SB folds, BB raises, I call
Turn is 4
BB bets, I can now raise for value against many opponents.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by poskid_1982
Not to be a dick but do ya'll realize that this hand is 3way on the turn???
PK
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Dick.
No, actually I didnt notice that. 
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