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DeanCarl
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04-20-2005, 09:16 PM
Post subject: Makes me ill.
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Alpine, CA
Posts: 80
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I get so many of these I literaly start to feel ill sometimes. And, to tell the truth, I just don't see anything I can do about it. Any thoughts?
PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
Preflop: Hero is CO with 8 , K . Hero posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, 1 fold.
Flop: (6 SB) Q , A, J (5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.
Turn: (5.50 BB) A (5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds.
River: (9.50 BB) T (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Button folds, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 19.50 BB
Results in white below:
UTG has Jh Jd (full house, jacks full of aces).
Hero has 8c Kd (straight, ace high).
Outcome: UTG wins 19.50 BB.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Get rid of this hand on the flop.
On the flop - you are thinking I have a gutshot 4 outer, but implied odds tell me to call. On these kinds of boards you will quite often be looking at a split if you make your hand, so the implied odds are not there.
On the turn, now you aren't even drawing at the nuts any more...get rid of this f'n hand now!!!
On the river, you made your hand, but the river gets capped with a paired board. Gee, think someone made a boat?? I do.
Now can you explain your play of the hand?
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DeanCarl
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Alpine, CA
Posts: 80
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With no raise on the flop the odds said "go". Didn't consider the split.
I put UTG on a high two pair on the turn and river. Aces and something. I was wrong.
Dean
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lonnie
Get rid of this hand on the flop.
On the flop - you are thinking I have a gutshot 4 outer, but implied odds tell me to call. On these kinds of boards you will quite often be looking at a split if you make your hand, so the implied odds are not there.
On the turn, now you aren't even drawing at the nuts any more...get rid of this f'n hand now!!!
On the river, you made your hand, but the river gets capped with a paired board. Gee, think someone made a boat?? I do.
Now can you explain your play of the hand?
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That's what I was gonna say.
Good explanation Lonnie.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Dean, you remind me of me about 6 months ago. These are typical tough spots to find yourself in. You are asking all the right questions if that makes you feel any better.
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DeanCarl
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Alpine, CA
Posts: 80
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Gonna be a LOT more comming. You can bet the farm on that. I'm sick and tired of loosing all the time. Some how, some way, I'm gonna learn how to win at this game.
Dean
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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Seems like you are slightly impatient by posting in CO instead of waiting it out to post in the normal BB, also, by seeing you playing K8o the way you did this also tells me you play impatiently and on the loose side, I would have dumped this hand preflop unless for some reason I was BB and it was limped around and I could see a freebee... at .05/.10 you have no reason to play hands such as this since the majority of the player at that level will 3 bet or even cap with anything...
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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Seems like you are slightly impatient by posting in CO instead of waiting it out to post in the normal BB
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It's pretty common for me to post in the CO...I don't mind putting the BB up from there because the position is pretty good. I will typically post from CO or CO+1 or wait for the BB otherwise. What does everyone else do?
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Tripps7
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 130
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I almost always wait for the BB. Let's me watch the table for a few hands. Then I can bail for free if the table doesn't look good.
I fold this hand on the flop...
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Two other factors to consider:
- There is a possibility of a raise behind you on the flop, moreso on the turn (particularly since a ragged Ace would no longer have to worry about a weak kicker). A raise on either street would drastically reduce your pot odds, which were already marginal.
- If you hit your draw, the best you can hope for is one bet from each opponent on the river. A broadway straight with four of the straight cards on the board is so obvious it will almost never get capped unless you are tied or beat.
It actually turns out that your flop call was a good one. Not a bad move if button and SB are calling stations. Since you had just posted, there was probably no way of knowing that.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
Seems like you are slightly impatient by posting in CO instead of waiting it out to post in the normal BB
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Posting in the cutoff at a ten-seated table with no empty seats is a slightly better deal than paying both blinds. You see seven hands for one small bet, as opposed to ten hands for 1.5 small bets (6.7 hands per SB).
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
also, by seeing you playing K8o the way you did this also tells me you play impatiently and on the loose side, I would have dumped this hand preflop unless for some reason I was BB and it was limped around and I could see a freebee... at .05/.10 you have no reason to play hands such as this since the majority of the player at that level will 3 bet or even cap with anything...
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He checked preflop. What was he supposed to do, fold?
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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the bane of my existence is flopping some shitty 2pr from the BB and getting counterfeited by a higher pair on the board or simply outdrawn at high cost with cards i didn't even want to play. seems like it happens to me 1-2 times every session.
ChezJ
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face
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 187
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
the bane of my existence is flopping some shitty 2pr from the BB and getting counterfeited by a higher pair on the board or simply outdrawn at high cost with cards i didn't even want to play. seems like it happens to me 1-2 times every session.
ChezJ
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I know exactly what you mean. You think to yourself, as the river pairs the j on the board -- why did you passive bastards limp preflop and make me play 73o and hit bottom two on the flop? Knowing the hand is vulnerable, you inevitably try to checkraise or reraise on the flop to make it bad for other players to draw you out and lose a crapload. What's the best line with a crappy two pair?
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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well as BB you are first to act so your options are to bet or go for a check-raise. i've tried the check-raise approach and invariably ended up giving a free card, which is horrible because then somebody always improves enough to call you on the turn. as sklansky says, giving a free card lays "infinite odds" to your opponents.
so betting out on the flop seems like your only option. but this grows the pot and gives better pot odds to your opponents on the turn. so generally you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.
by the way, i have the same exact problem playing KK/AA in the SB/BB. there is just no way to protect your hand. the excellent wisdom laid out in SSH just does not apply when you are in EP and you are the pre-flop raiser.
sorry for taking this thread so far afield but it is a very important concept that has been bugging me a lot lately.
ChezJ
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by koolmoe
Posting in the cutoff at a ten-seated table with no empty seats is a slightly better deal than paying both blinds. You see seven hands for one small bet, as opposed to ten hands for 1.5 small bets (6.7 hands per SB).
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But you don't get the button...
The short of it is that posting from CO-MP is neutral to slightly -EV by so little you really shouldn't worry.
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