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ArcticKnight

03-13-2005, 05:39 PM Post subject: The MAGIC button

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

Last night at 10/20 Empire one guy played' "any two" from the button. He must have read that the button was no only the best position, but that it was MAGIC... And for him it was magic, here are two of 5 nice pots he took down with weak pocket holdings.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP :.
UTG calls, Hero calls, [color=+666666]1 fold[/color], Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 4

, T

, 8

(5 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero folds, Button calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 2

(3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Button calls.

River: (7 BB) 4

(3 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Button raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: [color:#FFFFFF]
Button has 4c 3s (three of a kind, fours).
SB has Td 8s (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: Button wins 11 BB. [/color]

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with 6

, T

.
3 folds, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 5

, 5

, 6

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Button bets, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 4

(3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Button bets, SB folds, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) 2

(2 players)
BB bets, Button raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below: [color:#FFFFFF]
Button has 2c 5d (full house, fives full of twos).
BB has As 3s (straight, six high).
Outcome: Button wins 9 BB. [/color]

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

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RiverMonkey

03-14-2005, 08:43 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Posts: 446

Ok, that guy just got lucky, and there's no way he should have played hands that bad even from the button. Even a magic one!

But here's an interesting set of questions, would you play these hands from the button in a loose game?

Q4s, T7s, A3o, A3o, K7o, J9o, 98o, J7s

Depending on what the action was before it came to me, what my opponents have been limping in with, etc. I would!

What about other "suited trash" hands? Like J5s, or T6s ... would you ever consider playing these hands from the button. I would, but VERY rarely.

TylerK

03-14-2005, 08:48 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Oct 2004

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Posts: 1,791

LOL...any time I raise junk from the button and catch a miracle, I will now refer to "the magic button."

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

Fnord

03-14-2005, 09:02 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

But here's an interesting set of questions, would you play these hands from the button in a loose game?

Q4s - Nope
T7s - No, but I'll play T8s
A3o - No f'n way, what are you hoping fo?
K7o - Ditto
J9o - Close, but nah
98o - Yup
J7s - No, but I'll play J9s, J8s if I'm feeling lucky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

RiverMonkey

03-14-2005, 09:28 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Posts: 446

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

But here's an interesting set of questions, would you play these hands from the button in a loose game?

Q4s - Nope
T7s - No, but I'll play T8s
A3o - No f'n way, what are you hoping fo?
K7o - Ditto
J9o - Close, but nah
98o - Yup
J7s - No, but I'll play J9s, J8s if I'm feeling lucky.

Before I respond, I didn't pull these hands out of the air. They are all defined as starting hands for on the button in Abdul Jalib's well-known "Pre-Flop Strategy" paper.

Here's my take on how I'd play these at the B&M (if I was multi-tabling online I agree with every one of Fnord's comments, I'll naturally tend to play tighter, and still not get bored when MT'ing)

Q4s - once in a blue moon, only if I can limp, only if the blinds are passives, if I have a big-stack and am using OPM to gamble, I'm feeling lucky, I'm bored with folding the last 10 hands, and this is the first hand that's even remotely playable I've seen on the button in the last 3 or 4 orbits . Oh, and for stealing the blinds ... which really applies to any of these hands when the blinds are unlikely to defend (btw, I find this quite rare in the B&M and more often online at some PP $2/4 tables).

T7s - sometimes, but rarely. Same reasons as above. Also, I sometimes play this just because I call it "the suited Negreneau" (he plays this hand in NL sometimes). That's a good reason right?

A3o - only if I'm trying to steal the blinds - otherwise ... nope!

K7o - same as A3o

J9o - same as A3o, plus a bit more than once in a blue moon with the same reasoning as for Q4s.

89o - yes, me too. 76o is more iffy for me - I don't have any justication for this really. rarely, I'll go way out on a limb and play 54o ... but I know that's wrong too!

J7s - rarely ... but, yup, I like J8s and J9s from the buttom for a limp.

Other suited trash OTB? ... only when I'm on the extreme side of being desperately bored from folding, folding, folding.

Fnord

03-14-2005, 09:32 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

Before I respond, I didn't pull these hands out of the air. They are all defined as starting hands for on the button in Abdul Jalib's well-known "Pre-Flop Strategy" paper.

That list is for open raising. Yes, I will steal with all of those hands except A3o.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

RiverMonkey

03-14-2005, 09:51 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Good point .. Abdul's list is for open raising.

That's interesting that you won't try to steal with a naked ace. Any specific reasons why?

I would have thought that ace-high (regardless of kicker) is a decent stealing hand, no?

Fnord

03-14-2005, 10:05 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

I'll go down to A5o. Recent data suggests that after that it's about neutral EV depending on the situation, etc. The thing is a steal raiser often takes down a Axx board without showdown anyway and any Ace will often defend so the weaker offsuit aces aren't really good stealing hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

03-15-2005, 02:25 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Posts: 416

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

Good question

Keeping in mind table dependent....

10Handed 6 handed
Q4s no no
10/7s no 10-8s or 9-7s, but doubt 10-7s
A3o no yes with a raise if just SB and BB left*
K7o no no
J9o no no (J9s yes)
98o yes if lots limpers yes w 1 or 2 limpers
J7s no no

* hoping for a steal. If I'm not raising I'll fold

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

03-15-2005, 02:31 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Why not steal raise with any one of these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

03-15-2005, 04:46 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why not steal raise with any one of these?

Good question... I guess the most of the hands I would go in with, I would consider raising with as well. My PFR% is OK.

But, I'm just not into q4s, j7s, K7os for a limp or a raise, even from the button (even 6 handed). I am missing some +EV.

Or, are you suggesting if I'm going to enter from the button with just the SB and BB, to go for the raise as opposed to limping so that I can (1) blind steal or (2) win outright?

Thanks

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

03-15-2005, 11:30 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

Or, are you suggesting if I'm going to enter from the button with just the SB and BB, to go for the raise as opposed to limping so that I can (1) blind steal or (2) win outright?

1) Never open-limp on the button
2) You should be stealing ~40% of the time in these games. I'm surprised you're beating the 10/20 6max without doing this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

03-16-2005, 02:41 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

Or, are you suggesting if I'm going to enter from the button with just the SB and BB, to go for the raise as opposed to limping so that I can (1) blind steal or (2) win outright?

1) Never open-limp on the button
2) You should be stealing ~40% of the time in these games. I'm surprised you're beating the 10/20 6max without doing this.

Thanks Fnord

1. I seldom open-limp from the button. On the button, PT has me at 72% (Raise 1st in %) but I still have small sample size.

2. My attempt to steal blinds is 37.2%, but that stat is not just the button , is it. Doesn't it count a 1st to act raise from anywhere that's folded to the button?? If so, kind of misleading.

Good advice... I'll work to get that 72% to 100%. Because I'm still a little loose, of the 28% of hands where I am limping, I should probably fold down 2/3rds of them and raise 1/3 of them, thus tighten up and no more open-button-limps.

As for how I am winning .......I ask that myself.......lol

I have a theory though....my game has enough gaps to look like I totally don't know what I am doing, but in reality I only partially don't know what I am doing. That is, I'm only part fish - lol.

Thanks again.

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Pizzaman

03-16-2005, 02:57 AM

#14 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 73

I saw a commercial the other day for staples. I think the guy must have had an "EASY" button.
lol

God Bless America

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