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jmrogers7
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06-03-2004, 03:30 PM
Post subject: Low-Limit Ramblings
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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Well, After about 1 1/2 weeks of playing limit poker at Ultimate Bet ($2/$4) I've begun to experience the "variance" that makes playing limit poker such a challenge. After about 4 days of playing $2/$4 I was up about $340 at those limit tables. I was experiencing some pretty good play from the other players at the tables, a pretty descent run of cards (nothing too great but nothing horrible either) as well as a little luck every once in a while. However, around day 5 of my LHE experiment the play got markedly worse by the other players. Many, many more people chasing straight/flush draws as well as chasing things like pairing their 2 overs. I was surprised by this play especially given that I am playing At Ultimate Bet which has a better player skill base than say, Party Poker. Normally, I would relish this type of player because I am a pretty patient player and can wait on the big hand to take these types of players down. But nothing I waited on was working for me during this run. I lost about $230 of the $340 that I had won over the next 5 days or so.
Well, the last night that I played (2 nights ago) was the worst. I had good cards, was making pretty good plays (at least in my mind  ) and I was victimized by chasers galore. For the first time in a long while I went on tilt. Now, I am usually pretty good about being able to not go on tilt but that night I had had it up to here with all the chasers outdrawing me. I would raise, they would call and chase. I would re-raise, they would call and chase. It was amazing what they would stay in these pots with. All this being said, I should have just gotten up and went to a different table but that's what tilt will do to you. 
Well, after losing about $75 and going on tilt I did what we all fear when we go on tilt. I decided to take my money and move UP a level and play $3/$6! It was there that I found the most "real" game that I have experienced yet playing online. I was pleasantly surprised at the level of play at that level. In an hour I managed to recoup the $75 that I lost playing $2/$4 to get back to even for the night.
Now, that being said, I felt the same way about $2/$4 the first several days that I played at that level. So, given the fact that I only played $3/$6 for an hour and basing something on an hours worth of play is never going to offer any form of validity to my findings, I may very well find the same type of play that I encountered at $2/$4 eventually. But it was definitely a pleasant change from the frustration of dealing with the chasers that seemed to have found their way to putting me on tilt at $2/$4.
When I lost a hand at the $3/$6 table, I deserved to lose the hand. Either by poor play on my part or just plain and simply being outplayed. I'm not naive enough to think that the same types of players that ruined my day at $2/$4 don't reside at the $3/$6 level and I'm sure that I would run into some of them if I continued to play at that level. It's a good thing to have a few of them at your table. But when you get close to a table full of them that isn't going to help my bankroll.
Now, I don't have nearly the bankroll to be playing $3/$6. Again, the only reason that I was even there was because I was on tilt. Thankfully it worked out that night. If I can get my bankroll up, however, I would gladly trade in my $2/$4 game for $3/$6.
Fnord - Have you played any $3/$6 yet? I know that you have also been dabbling in $2/$4 recently. Just curious if you had and if you thought the level of play was markedly better at that next level.[/b]
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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doubleup
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 109
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Same exact thing happened to me on PP (I know it's expected from PP players and not UB). I started out playing limit .5/1 but the play seemed too irratic for me, so I moved up a little with nowhere near the bankroll needed. At 1/2 I did pretty well for about a week. I had made about $350 and thought I was the man. I had only been playing for about a month. Well in the next week I managed to lose $200 of the $350 I had made. A few days after that I lose $100 more, so I'm pretty much exactly where I started. I was playing by the book and gettin beat out by the wonderful PPers who call raises on flush/straight draws and mysteriously catch them. In combination with that it seemed I'd end up with the low end of a full-house or low end of my own straight. All together playing in 1 month I lost my deposit and everything I won in the weeks prior. I was PO'd. I had read around on the net previous to playing on PP and heard that UB has tighter, better players. So a week and a half ago I started playing their .5/1 games and I've made around $200 (SnG's as well). So we're on different sides of the fence here. All together it seems at my level UB has a tighter game, which is what I like.
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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Quote:
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All together it seems at my level UB has a tighter game, which is what I like.
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Oh I completely agree. For whatever reason I seem to do much better at UB than PP. I like the tighter game as well. That's why I was so surprised that I experienced that type of play on UB. Like I said, I know those types of players are out there in every poker room and, thank God for them because they are the ones we make our money off of. I was just very surprised that I experienced so many of them at the same table for several days in a row. It really affected my play having so many of that type at one table.
But, yes, overall, given the choice (at least in my limited experience online (about 4 1/2 months) I prefer the tighter game offered at UB over the looser PP games.
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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Fnord
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06-03-2004, 06:43 PM
Post subject: Re: Low-Limit Ramblings
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#4 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Normally, I would relish this type of player because I am a pretty patient player and can wait on the big hand to take these types of players down. But nothing I waited on was working for me during this run. I lost about $230 of the $340 that I had won over the next 5 days or so.
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Up to -100BB is a normal swing. Mason Malmuth discusses this in one of his books. Also consider, that the (implied) pot odd on chasing some of those hands may not have been that bad. Good players chase too, they just do it less often, with stronger draws and find ways to get cards cheap when they need them.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Well, after losing about $75 and going on tilt I did what we all fear when we go on tilt. I decided to take my money and move UP a level and play $3/$6! It was there that I found the most "real" game that I have experienced yet playing online. I was pleasantly surprised at the level of play at that level. In an hour I managed to recoup the $75 that I lost playing $2/$4 to get back to even for the night.
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Bad idea. If you want to play loose and gamble try the PP .5/1 tables. The correct strategy is looser and the other player's play is downright entertaining. Or lately I've been playing a little shorthanded .25/.50 stud at PS and have already nearly paid off both FTR Showdown entry fees.
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Now, that being said, I felt the same way about $2/$4 the first several days that I played at that level. So, given the fact that I only played $3/$6 for an hour and basing something on an hours worth of play is never going to offer any form of validity to my findings, I may very well find the same type of play that I encountered at $2/$4 eventually. But it was definitely a pleasant change from the frustration of dealing with the chasers that seemed to have found their way to putting me on tilt at $2/$4.
When I lost a hand at the $3/$6 table, I deserved to lose the hand. Either by poor play on my part or just plain and simply being outplayed. I'm not naive enough to think that the same types of players that ruined my day at $2/$4 don't reside at the $3/$6 level and I'm sure that I would run into some of them if I continued to play at that level. It's a good thing to have a few of them at your table. But when you get close to a table full of them that isn't going to help my bankroll.
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That's so wrong. Players chasing with crap is a major revenue stream for a strong player. Try .5/1 for a while and you'll understand. I'm up over 10BB/100 hands, even after accounting for a couple tilt-tastic sessions. You can chase me all day. You'll take down some big pots and I'll want to defenestrate you for it, but overall my bankroll will thank you!
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Originally Posted by jmrogers7
Fnord - Have you played any $3/$6 yet? I know that you have also been dabbling in $2/$4 recently. Just curious if you had and if you thought the level of play was markedly better at that next level.[/b]
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The PP 3/6 game is usually a rock garden as it tends to attract tight play because of the $1 SB and players move up to it after learning how to beat the 2/4 game.
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jmrogers7
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,112
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Quote:
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Bad idea. If you want to play loose and gamble try the PP .5/1 tables. The correct strategy is looser and the other player's play is downright entertaining.
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Oh I wasn't playing loose at the $3/$6 table. I played my normal game. Even though I was definitely on tilt, the fact that I moved to $3/$6 for that short session made me play tighter knowing that I had gone up a level.
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That's so wrong. Players chasing with crap is a major revenue stream for a strong player. Try .5/1 for a while and you'll understand. I'm up over 10BB/100 hands, even after accounting for a couple tilt-tastic sessions. You can chase me all day. You'll take down some big pots and I'll want to defenestrate you for it, but overall my bankroll will thank you!
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Agreed, that's why I said that normally I would relish this type of player at my table. And yes, I agree that even good players chase, just not as often. It just got ot the point over that couple of day period where I simply could not take down the chasers no matter what I got. I think we would all agree that without the loose players we wouldn't make any money. But I think we'd all also agree that at times it feels as if there just isn't anything we can do to take these types of players down no matter how well we play.
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The PP 3/6 game is usually a rock garden as it tends to attract tight play because of the $1 SB and players move up to it after learning how to beat the 2/4 game.
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I don't know that what I saw over that VERY brief period could be construed as a "rock garden". however, the play was definitely considerably tighter than at the $1/$2 or $2/$4 levels.
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"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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I agree with JM, sometimes although you are always going in with the best of it, you just get outdrawn on everyhand and miss every draw.
Happened to me last night, was so frustrating, AA cracked to 74os, damn 4 to straight boards were killing me. Big PPs running into bigger PPs, bad beats are a good sign you are playing well but why do they have to come all at once 
Luckily i caught a rush of cards at the end to finish up about $20 for the night (was $130 after a good start but heh). One good thing about Pacific, has to be the only thing! the players are really weak, variance is a little high though as they all seem to want to bluff. Flop can be regulay capped with 4-5 callers for everyone to fold on the card. Sometimes you will see a paired flush baord taken to the end with 4 callers, and someone will win with 2 pair, I'm like "wtf did the other dudes have, if that won?".
I can't retrieve the HHs either, Pacific really is a piece of poo...
I have to wager 4k before I can leave with my bonus grrrr, so far I have wagered 1k so I have 3k to go. I should bet red and black at $200 each and see if that works  (they have a casino section).
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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If you want to do something like that, play craps instead and bet a minimum line bet with maximum odds behind.
Craps has about a 1% house advantage vs. Roulette's 5.29%
Make the bets small enough so that you don't experience the variance that goes along with it.
If you wager 4,000 in craps then you can expect to lose 40 dollars.
If you wager 4,000 in roulette you can expect to lose 200 dollars.
How much is/was the deposit bonus?
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Toasty
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
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I was just kidding, and that post was over 3 months ago . . .
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Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Uhhhh -- I was just kidding too.
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