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Low-limit question/strategy involving KK's

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MrHanso

08-16-2004, 07:15 PM Post subject: Low-limit question/strategy involving KK's

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 2

Have a quick question for all of you low-limit online players (mainly Fnord):

I've Been playing poker for about twenty years, however I've just recently (a year) started playing hold'em. This is my first post (so don't roast me) .... I've Been reading the forums for quite some time and started reading LJs "Winning Low-limit Hold'em" (start small I figure). At the end of one of his chapters he has a question where he asks the following question:

"Suppose you have Kh-Kd, you have raised before the flop, and six players take the flop, which comes out Kc-7d-2h. What should you normally do?"

My initial reaction is to slow-play the hand. By checking on the flop, I'm bluffing weakness and representing a hand that did't hit on the flop (with a hand that most surely is going to win). With six people on the flop, one of them will surely bet this round ... and probably sucker a couple more in that were originally afraid of me. Then, on the turn, I can make a bet (or raise) where people will think I hit something small on the turn ... and then proceed to bet/raise to the river.

After looking at his answer, he stated the complete opposite of what I thought. His quote: "You should bet or raise immediately on the flop. The flop is just about perfect for you - it's virtually impossible you won't have the best hand on the turn. However, there is so much money in the pot, there's no reason to slow-play. Furthermore, after you raised pre-flop, your opponents will expect you to bet, so you haven't given out any information."

Personally, I think that would give out way too much information ... and I'd be more inclined to bet/raise the flop if I missed it totally. Is this wrong thinking?

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Humphrind

08-16-2004, 07:32 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

There are 2 pieces of info that tell me there is no need to slow play this.

1. 6 people see the flop
2. you are playing low limit holdem

I probably wouldn't overbet this, because you want callers. But you will get a caller or two even if you bet it kinda big. No fear on getting the table to fold.

I'm still interested in seeing Fnords answer.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

Jes_Gru

08-16-2004, 08:00 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 209

If you check on the flop, chances are that everyone else will check also (since you raised pre-flop), thus giving them a free card.

So you bet, you might still get some chasers to call (since the bet is still small), whereas if you slow play those chasers might fold to a bet on the turn or river.

But if someone bets before you on the flop, I would slow-play until the turn or river or re-raise if in late position.

(waits for Fnord to reply also)

fishstick

08-16-2004, 08:08 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2004

Location: Carlsbad, CA

Posts: 1,405

in early position (ideally one of the blinds), i would check with the idea of check raising - in low limit "no foldem holdem", the check raise won't scare most people. they'll call if they've already put money in (calling the initial flop bet). there's even a good chance you'll get reraised.

with 6 seeing the flop, somebody's got to like their hand enough to bet.

i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...

VeraN

08-17-2004, 05:03 AM

#5 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Posts: 73

The reason why you should raise is because even if you check, you most likely won't get any action unless it's from the button attempting to steal the pot. This is because you already have pocket kings with a king on the board. There's only one more king out there in the deck, so you already have the deck crippled.

Let's say you check and the button raises, you reraise and everybody else folds. The button might fold as well because he might not even have the king.

Let's look at another scenario where you raise. People with the mid, or low pair might call. If a person reraises you, you could put him on AK, two pair, or trips, which you have beaten already. This is great for you then because you could then open a new arsenal of weapons. You could reraise, or just call pretending to not have the nut and sucker him in for more bets.

The whole point is, by checking, either everybody checks or one person raises. You could then decide to reraise which is a bad decision, or call. If you call, then that person is going to fold once it's your turn assuming that you are in the early position (this is if he doesn't have the king).

So by raising first you are more likely to get more bets out of the other players mainly because they are less likely to reraise and scare off the other callers since the deck is so crippled, and once they call, they are most likely going to call the bet on the turn as well, and possibly the river.

Fnord

08-17-2004, 05:20 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Bet.

Low-limit players call with junk, it's just what they do. Checking here fails to punish them. Check-raising might scare them off or cause a second best hand to slow down on the turn. If you're raised, you also have more options. You could 3-bet right away, or wait to check/raise the flop raiser on the turn.

BTW, I bet this flop against semi-aware players too. You're the pre-flop aggressor with Kings, you're expected to bet, don't disappoint. If you don't bet here, what am I supposed to think you have when you bet this flop with AQ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

MrHanso

08-17-2004, 12:56 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 2

Thanks for the tips guys ... I see your points here. Hopefully, someday I'll be in this situation to experience the play. Would it be the same play if it were no-limit? I'm definitely not great at no-limit, however this seems like a perfect spot to set a bear trap for somebody.

fishstick

08-17-2004, 04:26 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2004

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Low-limit players call with junk, it's just what they do. Checking here fails to punish them. Check-raising might scare them off or cause a second best hand to slow down on the turn.

you've played these games a lot more than i have - do they really pay attention to the check raise?

i hate what i have become to escape what i hated being...

Fnord

08-17-2004, 06:31 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishstick

you've played these games a lot more than i have - do they really pay attention to the check raise?

Sometimes. Mostly, they're a little more selective about at least having a pair if they're going to cold call 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Legendash

08-17-2004, 06:59 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Crypto 6max 100NL

Posts: 611

Just had to point out that the title of this topic is playing KKs, as in :Ks::Ks:, sorry never been dealt that one, wouldn't know.

Humphrind

08-17-2004, 07:01 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendash

Just had to point out that the title of this topic is playing KKs, as in :Ks::Ks:, sorry never been dealt that one, wouldn't know.

I think the s was plural, not suited. But I've often typed out J8s (not suited, plural) and been misread.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

Legendash

08-17-2004, 08:46 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Crypto 6max 100NL

Posts: 611

Yeah i know,

"I Must Suppress my 'quirky' british sense of humour"
"I Must Suppress my 'quirky' british sense of humour"
"I Must Suppress my 'quirky' british sense of humour"
"I Must Suppress my 'quirky' british sense of humour"
"I Must Suppress my 'quirky' british sense of humour"

Right, that should have cured it, no more 'funny' posts from me.

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