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Rondavu
Old 03-02-2005, 03:25 PM     Post subject: Low Limit Hold Em (All Luck) #1 (permalink)  
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I'm having a lot of trouble at low limit hold em. I keep getting my good raising hands run down every time. The problem is I can't get any chasers out of the pot. They end up getting two pairs 5's and 10's to beat my paired king with ace kicker. I played last night and got these hands consecutively... KK, AKs, AK, AJ, TT. Every single one got run down when like 4 or 5 people were in the pot. The hand that busted me later was Q9. I limped in on the button and flopped two pair Q's and 9's. I got run down by not one, but two other people to bust out. I'm starting to believe there's no skill in low limit chase em at all. Why even play?
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Old 03-02-2005, 03:28 PM #2 (permalink)  
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post some hands
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 03-02-2005, 03:32 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Your post and any other questions can be answered in one phrase:

Small Stakes Holdem, by Sklansky and Malmuth


Its evident by your post you havent read this book. So read, and all your questions will be answered.

Secondly, why are you limping Q9 on the button? Its an easy fold that will save you the heartbreak of getting such a marginal holding 'cracked.'


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

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Rondavu
Old 03-02-2005, 04:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Unfortunately no hand histories were preserved.

I limped with Q9 to possibly flop 2 pair or better which I did. There's no reason to get out of the hand after that.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Xianti
Old 03-02-2005, 04:10 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
I limped with Q9 to possibly flop 2 pair or better which I did.
ROFLCOPTER!

We got a live one here.



Sorry... but listen to what you're saying. You're paying to play a weak hand and hoping for a miraculous flop. With that logic, why not play 74? You might possibly flop 2 pair or better with 74 as well.
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Sed
Old 03-02-2005, 04:11 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
I limped with Q9 to possibly flop 2 pair or better which I did.
shame shame shame.....

- sed
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Sed
Old 03-02-2005, 04:14 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xianti
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
I limped with Q9 to possibly flop 2 pair or better which I did.
ROFLCOPTER!

We got a live one here.
bastard beat me to it.... I thought of responding "glub glub glub" but that might hurt his feelings....

Rond you reallly need to tighten up. A string of good cards that gets beaten down will happen with reasonable frequency but you have to keep playing them and not get tempted into playing Q9 just because you might flop 2-pair or better.

- sed
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LeFou
Old 03-02-2005, 04:26 PM     Post subject: Re: Low Limit Hold Em (All Luck) #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
The problem is I can't get any chasers out of the pot. They end up getting two pairs 5's and 10's...
Yeah, or queens and nines or some shit like that.
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gabe
Old 03-02-2005, 04:29 PM #9 (permalink)  
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rondavu, you need to tighten up. Q9 is not a good hand. Occasionally your good hands will not win, but that's part of the game. Try to get some hand histories from the next time you play and we will gladly help you.
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elipsesjeff
Old 03-02-2005, 04:29 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Man, you guys are rough.

tighten up some and the bad beats wont follow.


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More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
 
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Xianti
Old 03-02-2005, 04:33 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 Tough love, baby. Tough love.
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Rondavu
Old 03-02-2005, 05:02 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I had 3 limpers before me, and I had Q9 "on the button". Why not play this? This is my rationale. If no one raised before my button, and the blinds only checked, my attitude is they all probably have worse hands than I do with Q9. Why do you not advocate limping the best starting hand in the pot preflop on the button? What would make me believe this isn't a strong limping hand?

To me some hands are strong limping hands. They play nice when the pot goes to flop without raise. Q9 is certainly one of them. You can't raise it, but if everyone limps you have a reasonable shot even with a pair of queens. You guys are obviously better players than I, so tell me where my logic is off.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Old 03-02-2005, 05:12 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
I had 3 limpers before me, and I had Q9 "on the button". Why not play this? This is my rationale. If no one raised before my button, and the blinds only checked, my attitude is they all probably have worse hands than I do with Q9. Why do you not advocate limping the best starting hand in the pot preflop on the button? What would make me believe this isn't a strong limping hand?

To me some hands are strong limping hands. They play nice when the pot goes to flop without raise. Q9 is certainly one of them. You can't raise it, but if everyone limps you have a reasonable shot even with a pair of queens. You guys are obviously better players than I, so tell me where my logic is off.
alright. you can't like your hand much if you pair either the 9 or the Q. if you pair the Q you don't like your kicker. if you pair the 9 there are many overcards.

the best case scenario is flopping 2 pair of better. that happens a whopping 2% of the time.

and if you still don't believe us, check this out:
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...php?players=10

Q9o is losing EVERY SINGLE POSITION
 
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dalai007
Old 03-02-2005, 05:14 PM #14 (permalink)  

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"good limping hands" for me are KJs Ajo A10s J10s and the like WHEN I HAVE POSITION. Everything else is pretty much a fold ie K10o Q10o 9 10 o any off suit connector. I hate being raised trying to limp from early position: so I came up with a easy fix I dont do it!
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Rondavu
Old 03-02-2005, 05:25 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Good point dalai007, but I had the very "best" position. The button is the only reason I even limped this hand. Any other position and it's an immediate fold for me.

My problem is I'm addicted to buttons, because they're so delicious. I can't bring myself to give them up when my hand is somewhat tasty.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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ChezJ
Old 03-02-2005, 05:27 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 i made $1,000 in february playing nothing but low limit holdem at loose tables. i guess that makes me one lucky son of a bitch.

seriously dude, read a book.

ChezJ
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Rondavu
Old 03-02-2005, 05:36 PM #17 (permalink)  
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I've read books, just not on limit specifically. Truth is I'm an excellent No limit player that gets slaughtered in limit. Which books did you read ChezJ? I'm certain I need improvement, but is Sklansky the only love for me?

By the way hypermegachi, I looked at that chart and had no idea how bad Q9 really performs. Thanks for the check up.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-02-2005, 05:37 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalai007
"good limping hands" for me are KJs Ajo A10s J10s and the like WHEN I HAVE POSITION. I hate being raised trying to limp from early position: so I came up with a easy fix I dont do it!
Agree with Dalai on the hand selection. Remember, good players in EP will likely have better cards, so don't give up your positional advantage to worse cards.
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
 
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Rondavu
Old 03-02-2005, 05:41 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Muhaha. K7s plays well out of the 5th position, but gets slaughtered everywhere else? 97s is profitable UTG? Where do they get this stuff dalai007? Is that an anomaly?
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-02-2005, 05:47 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
I've read books, just not on limit specifically. Truth is I'm an excellent No limit player that gets slaughtered in limit. Which books did you read ChezJ? I'm certain I need improvement, but is Sklansky the only love for me?
I just made the switch 4 months ago. Wow, have I learned a lot at FTR about limit (and still need much work). I love NL, 'cause you can make small deviations from proper play pre-flop and kill people post-flop. In limit, you don't have that as much (Ciaffone can't help!).

I know you asked ChezJ, but Small Stakes Holdem, by Ed Miller (and your lover Sklansky), was very helpful to me. However, this forum is a great place to get specific advice and to test your applications.
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
 
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ChezJ
Old 03-02-2005, 05:57 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 i always invite NL players to my home games of limit HE because they always get slaughtered.

limit is a totally different game.

in NL you can get paid off immensely in one hand for all the loose plays you made earlier. in limit you generally don't. when you win a pot, you only make up for the strong draws that you missed, not for your foolish speculations. so you have to plug all your leaks and exploit the tiny edges you have over other players.

i think the industry standard for learning limit is lee jones' "winning low limit holdem" (WLLH). but you can also check out lowlimitholdem.com

ChezJ
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Sed
Old 03-02-2005, 06:14 PM #22 (permalink)  
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I've been switching off weekly between limit and NL at my HG. Makes it even more profitable because it throws off everyone else for at least half the night....

- sed
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elipsesjeff
Old 03-02-2005, 06:23 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChezJ
i think the industry standard for learning limit is lee jones' "winning low limit holdem" (WLLH). but you can also check out lowlimitholdem.com

ChezJ
I want to kill you, and I want to do it NOW!!! WLLH blows man, read Small Stakes Hold'em and get a grasp on LHE reality.


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

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ChezJ
Old 03-02-2005, 06:30 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I want to kill you, and I want to do it NOW!!! WLLH blows man, read Small Stakes Hold'em and get a grasp on LHE reality.
never read the book myself but everybody else here has been recommending it. shrug.

i would actually recommend AGAINST reading SSH if you don't have the fundamentals of low limit holdem down pat. it will screw you up if you are not a tight player to begin with (which is apparently the case).

ChezJ
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elipsesjeff
Old 03-02-2005, 06:41 PM #25 (permalink)  
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 Not really, the first chapter alone will address this guy's attitude on LHE poker.

You dont have to play LHE for too long to get the fundamentals down, plus, SSH is good book for beginners as well.


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
 
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Miggo
Old 03-02-2005, 06:46 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Since you're not going to stop playing and sit down and read a couple books before you play again, at least get a copy of a hands chart from SSH or somewhere. Copy it down on a little sheet of paper and carry it everywhere until you memorize it. Have it sitting in front of you when you play. I think the first thing you gotta do is play decent starting hands. Even if you play them wrong, you'll do better than limping in with bad hands. After you have a copy of the starting from which position etc., then take the book and put it in the bathroom. Then tell yourself, whenever you're in the bathroom, you can't leave until you read 3 or 4 pages of the book, or 10 pages if you eat at Taco Bell alot.

Nobody here means anything personnal (sp). Good luck to you and you know that anything you want to be good at, you have to put some effort into it. See you at the tables. And if you don't learn those starting hands, I hope I see you alot at the tables.
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Rondavu
Old 03-02-2005, 08:39 PM #27 (permalink)  
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If you don't learn those starting hands, I hope I see you alot at the tables.
If you don't see me alot at the tables, it means I ate Taco Bell.

I actually just printed out a starting hand sheet from the site Chez suggested. I think one of my holes was not respecting the loose nature of the table. Namely you shouldn't raise preflop with anything your gonna play in a very low limit loose long handed game. He says that you might even consider limping KK AA QQ, because if those are the only hands you raise, people will start to pick up on it.

The fact is you can't raise a lot of hands preflop when your getting 5-6-7 callers in a hand regardless. You have to hit your flop. I don't know how much I believe him, but I'll give it a whirl.

I can't think of any other situation this strategy would be profitable besides low limit loose long handed.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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ChezJ
Old 03-02-2005, 08:47 PM #28 (permalink)  
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 wow, guess i haven't actually read that site in a while, but that advice sounds just plain nutterball!!! limp AA? when it holds up 6way, like it did for me playing $2/$4 at the taj, you get paid humongously.

what i got out of that site, long long ago when i was starting out, was that drawing hands can be very profitable at loose low limit tables. but you can't go crazy with the concept.

ChezJ
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Old 03-02-2005, 08:55 PM #29 (permalink)  
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even the lowly A2s wins somethin like 12% of the time.

if you have 6 limpers and you raise, you immediately make money on that raise if they all call (which they will).

lowlimitholdem.com is a very passive way of playing and will NOT maximize your profits.
 
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RiverMonkey
Old 03-02-2005, 09:05 PM #30 (permalink)  
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Yeah Rondavu ... if that site is giving you that kind of advice, don't go there until you read SSH. Limping AA in EP might be a good strategy in SOME games situations, but generally speaking, you should just raise with it.

Trust us, read SSH ... It explains the whys and hows behind all the rules of thumb. Soon after reading it, really studying it, and applying the ideas at the table you'll be able to answer any poker question with the only really valid answer "it depends"; you'll be able to give the person asking the questions a much deeper, more insightful answer . You'll be able to see why a given piece of advice is good in some situations and not good in others.

Get SSH!! You won't regret it.
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RiverMonkey
Old 03-02-2005, 09:07 PM #31 (permalink)  
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BTW, what the heck is ROFLCOPTER?

I know what ROFL is, but WTF is COPTER
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Old 03-02-2005, 09:16 PM #32 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
BTW, what the heck is ROFLCOPTER?

I know what ROFL is, but WTF is COPTER
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roflcopter
 
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Fnord
Old 03-02-2005, 10:25 PM #33 (permalink)  
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I guess I'm lucky I play against horrible players and make thousands of dollars *every* month.

Please reference our in depth strategy guide for these games

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...pic.php?t=6613
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Old 03-03-2005, 01:17 AM #34 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
I've read books, just not on limit specifically. Truth is I'm an excellent No limit player that gets slaughtered in limit. Which books did you read ChezJ? I'm certain I need improvement, but is Sklansky the only love for me?

By the way hypermegachi, I looked at that chart and had no idea how bad Q9 really performs. Thanks for the check up.

Quote:
Truth is I'm an excellent No limit player that gets slaughtered in limit.
Based on your quote (and taking it at face-value), why in the heck are you playing for money in a game that you already acknowledge you get slaughtered in? You acknowledge that you have some gaps in transition from NL to LHE, so study every resource available and work at it.

There is no need to put yourself on a "pay-as-you-learn" study course (like I did).

I dove into Holdem head first with $$ and am still trying to catch-up. I still suck, but not nearly as bad (as far as I know - lol).
Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
 
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Chicago_Kid
Old 03-03-2005, 05:31 AM #35 (permalink)  
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Rondavu:

When you do get SSH, check out page 59, under the 'PreFlop Play' section: "When you play offsuit hands like Qh 9C and As 4d, you grant your opponents a big head start. Event expert players cannot usually overcome this starting gap..."
"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
 
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Fnord
Old 03-03-2005, 12:40 PM #36 (permalink)  
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If you're going to play that crap, RAISE WITH IT! Muhahahahaha

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with 8, K.
5 folds, CO calls, Fnord raises, 1 fold, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 7, 8, 3 (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Fnord bets, BB folds, CO calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 6 (2 players)
CO checks, Fnord bets, CO calls.

River: (6.16 BB) Q (2 players)
CO checks, Fnord bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 8.16 BB

Results in white below:
CO has 5c 3s (one pair, threes).
Fnord has 8h Ks (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Fnord wins 8.16 BB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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jmontis
Old 03-03-2005, 06:48 PM #37 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
If you're going to play that crap, RAISE WITH IT! Muhahahahaha


Final Pot: 8.16 BB

Results in white below:
CO has 5c 3s (one pair, threes).
Fnord has 8h Ks (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Fnord wins 8.16 BB.
lol, nice
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