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gabe
Old 05-31-2005, 11:32 PM     Post subject: lots of gaybets... #1 (permalink)  
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anyone play this differently? no read on villian.

Game #712301233: Texas Hold'em Limit (£0.50/£1) - 2005/05/31 - 19:28:28 (ET)
Table "Omar" Seat 5 is the button.
Seat 1: Eugen3004 (£37.70 in chips)
Seat 2: si jh (£30.98 in chips)
Seat 4: gabezor (£37 in chips)
Seat 5: Ioweyou1 (£137.18 in chips)
Seat 6: Thebat (£75.05 in chips)
Seat 7: blackdog (£51.15 in chips)
Seat 8: Ewan003 (£27.05 in chips)
Seat 10: Tracey501 (£33.22 in chips)
Thebat: posts small blind £0.25
blackdog: posts big blind £0.50
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to gabezor [Qh Ks]
Ewan003: folds
Tracey501: calls £0.50
Eugen3004: calls £0.50
si jh: folds
gabezor: raises £1
Ioweyou1: folds
Thebat: folds
blackdog: raises £1
Tracey501: folds
Eugen3004: calls £1
gabezor: calls £0.50
----- FLOP ----- [Js 6c 9s]
blackdog: bets £0.50
Eugen3004: calls £0.50
gabezor: raises £1
blackdog: calls £0.50
Eugen3004: calls £0.50
----- TURN ----- [Js 6c 9s][Qc]
blackdog: bets £1
Eugen3004: calls £1
gabezor: raises £2
blackdog: calls £1
Eugen3004: folds
----- RIVER ----- [Js 6c 9s Qc][Jc]
blackdog: bets £1
gabezor: raises £2
blackdog: calls £1
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Room
Old 05-31-2005, 11:48 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I don't raise preflop, I don't raise the flop, I raise the turn, I bet or call the donkbet on the river.
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Fnord
Old 06-01-2005, 12:19 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Pre-flop is close, I really want more information on the players and table texture to make a limp vs raise decision. I would default to raising.

Flop raise is cute, I would probably just call. I like the turn raise. I just call the river without a read. With a read I might find a raise there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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Les_Worm
Old 06-01-2005, 12:27 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Preflop - Raise
Flop - Call
Turn - Raise
River - Call
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Phyl
Old 06-01-2005, 12:42 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I thought this was a really easy preflop raise but others are saying it's close so meh, I dunno. Anyone care to explain why limping is better than raising?

I'd call the flop bet, I think he 3-bets or leads the turn too often for the free card play to be +EV here. I think it's ok though. Edit: I don't like it, this is going to get 3-bet too often, too many people 3-bet overcards here.

I like the turn.

I wouldn't raise this river. The most likely hand for him to have (a pair of Jacks) has now improved to beat yours and there's a decent chance he'll 3-bet trips here which makes it worse. Edit: I like it more now but I still don't think you have the best hand often enough to raise. You also have to consider that he might not payoff a raise with a worse hand.

-- Edited because I'm blind --
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gabe
Old 06-01-2005, 12:47 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
I wouldn't raise this river. The most likely hand for him to have (a pair of Jacks) has now improved to beat yours and there's a decent chance he'll 3-bet trips here which makes it worse.
I was thinking the least likely thing for him to have was a pair of jacks before the river. He might have AJ, but i don't see him 3 betting with anything else preflop that includes a jack.
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Fnord
Old 06-01-2005, 12:49 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
I thought this was a really easy preflop raise but others are saying it's close so meh, I dunno. Anyone care to explain why limping is better than raising?
You have a very small (if any) pre-flop edge multi-way, so you may as well limp and play fit or fold poker against bad low limit players since you put them in a position make bigger mistakes post-flop by limping.

However, if you might knock out the blinds, buy the button, set-up a buy on the flop, etc. then raising has merit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Phyl
Old 06-01-2005, 12:49 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
I wouldn't raise this river. The most likely hand for him to have (a pair of Jacks) has now improved to beat yours and there's a decent chance he'll 3-bet trips here which makes it worse.
I was thinking the least likely thing for him to have was a pair of jacks before the river. He might have AJ, but i don't see him 3 betting with anything else preflop that includes a jack.
Shit, I completely misread the hand. I didn't realise he was the PFR I thought the PFR was the one calling along.

Damn it, let me change my post.
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gabe
Old 06-01-2005, 12:51 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
I thought this was a really easy preflop raise but others are saying it's close so meh, I dunno. Anyone care to explain why limping is better than raising?
You have a very small (if any) pre-flop edge multi-way, so you may as well limp and play fit or fold poker against bad low limit players since you put them in a position make bigger mistakes post-flop by limping.

However, if you might knock out the blinds, buy the button, set-up a buy on the flop, etc. then raising has merit.
for what its worth, the table was VERY loose. those limps could both easily be ace-rag.
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Fnord
Old 06-01-2005, 12:54 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
for what its worth, the table was VERY loose. those limps could both easily be ace-rag.
You're behind ace-rag. On a loose table I'm more inclinded to limp offsuit unpaired hands other than AK/AQ. It's easier to get in extra bets when you hit, the smaller pot protects your hand and it'll cut down on how much you'll lose when you miss (also, you won't be committed to peeling one as often.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Phyl
Old 06-01-2005, 01:00 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
I thought this was a really easy preflop raise but others are saying it's close so meh, I dunno. Anyone care to explain why limping is better than raising?
You have a very small (if any) pre-flop edge multi-way, so you may as well limp and play fit or fold poker against bad low limit players since you put them in a position make bigger mistakes post-flop by limping.

However, if you might knock out the blinds, buy the button, set-up a buy on the flop, etc. then raising has merit.
It does, but against two players it has an edge and raising has the obvious advantage of keeping others out of the pot.

Buying the button and gaining folding equity means puts you in a good position to take the pot down unimproved something you surrender when you limp.

What is the maximum number of players KQo can be up against and still have an edge? I'm interested because I have never limped this hand.
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Fnord
Old 06-01-2005, 01:03 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
It does, but against two players it has an edge and raising has the obvious advantage of keeping others out of the pot.

Buying the button and gaining folding equity means puts you in a good position to take the pot down unimproved something you surrender when you limp.
If the game texture is such that raising pre-flop isn't going to do much to limit the field, unlikely to buy the button and you won't take down it down very often unimproved then limping is clearly the better play. When players call WAY WAY too much, then you don't beat them for the max by throwing bets at them with 2 reasonably big cards that missed the board.

Also, if you raise pre-flop, someone with a hand like KTo is more likley to just check/call you down on a Kxx board. However, after limping you have a better chance to get in extra bets post-flop where you have a huge edge.

I limp AJo/ATo/KQo/KJo, etc quite a bit if I'm behind a couple limpers or at a silly loose table.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Phyl
Old 06-01-2005, 03:13 PM #13 (permalink)  
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I tried doing a PokerStove simulation. I failed, oh how I failed.

How long does it usually take? I left it running for ages and it still said 00% complete. When I quit it said it had done 70 billion games but still the equity for KQo's opponents was all different despite identical hand ranges.

What gives?
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Fnord
Old 06-01-2005, 03:14 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Try a monte carlo run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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pokerfanatic
Old 06-01-2005, 03:19 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
I wouldn't raise this river. The most likely hand for him to have (a pair of Jacks) has now improved to beat yours and there's a decent chance he'll 3-bet trips here which makes it worse.
I was thinking the least likely thing for him to have was a pair of jacks before the river. He might have AJ, but i don't see him 3 betting with anything else preflop that includes a jack.
what about QJ or KJ lots of idiots at .5/1 that are aggressive play these hands like that...
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elipsesjeff
Old 06-02-2005, 12:30 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_worm
Preflop - Raise
Flop - Call
Turn - Raise
River - Call


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More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
 
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Phyl
Old 06-02-2005, 06:20 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Tried it again on the Monte Carlo setting, still didn't finish so I got all these results by leaving it running for a while and then stopping it.

Range of hands for opponents: { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K4s, QJs-Q8s, JTs-J8s, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, AJo-A2o, KJo-K9o, QJo-Q9o, JTo-J9o } I think I'm probably giving them too much credit not to play crap but it seems reasonable.


3 opponents:

75,127,127 games 278.312 secs 269,938 games/sec

Hand 1: 30.5931 % KQo
Hand 2: 23.1354 %
Hand 3: 23.1350 %
Hand 4: 23.1364 %


5 opponents:

14,273,672 games 233.687 secs 61,080 games/sec

Hand 1: 22.3391 % KQo
Hand 2: 15.5163 %
Hand 3: 15.5415 %
Hand 4: 15.5444 %
Hand 5: 15.5379 %
Hand 6: 15.5209 %


7 opponents:

2,910,659 games 381.391 secs 7,631 games/sec

Hand 1: 16.6086 % KQo
Hand 2: 11.9276 %
Hand 3: 11.9082 %
Hand 4: 11.9081 %
Hand 5: 11.9291 %
Hand 6: 11.9020 %
Hand 7: 11.9127 %
Hand 8: 11.9037 %

So KQo has a smaller edge against 7 players than 5 but the lowest equity edge against 3. Have I messed this up?
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Fnord
Old 06-02-2005, 06:26 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Consider that tight/passive players like to limp big hands, and some players won't limp unpaired hands. I heard all about the virtues of limping AK when at the cardroom.

Finally, consider that limping sets up our opponents to make far worse mistakes post-flop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Phyl
Old 06-02-2005, 06:33 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Consider that tight/passive players like to limp big hands, and some players won't limp unpaired hands. I heard all about the virtues of limping AK when at the cardroom.

Finally, consider that limping sets up our opponents to make far worse mistakes post-flop.
I was actually quite suprised at how small the edge is for KQo. So small that I agree in a really loose game you'll probably make more by limping and the advantages that come with it.

However, I don't think situations where it is correct to limp occur that frequently at 3/6 and above where people will fold to a raise and pots aren't often that multiway.
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ChezJ
Old 06-02-2005, 06:40 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 run a search on FTR, KQo is a perennial favorite for discussion. seems like we go over this all over again every month.
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gabe
Old 06-02-2005, 08:17 PM #21 (permalink)  
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results: mhig
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chardrian
Old 06-02-2005, 09:24 PM     Post subject: Re: lots of gaybets... #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
anyone play this differently? no read on villian.

Game #712301233: Texas Hold'em Limit (£0.50/£1) - 2005/05/31 - 19:28:28 (ET)
Table "Omar" Seat 5 is the button.
Seat 1: Eugen3004 (£37.70 in chips)
Seat 2: si jh (£30.98 in chips)
Seat 4: gabezor (£37 in chips)
Seat 5: Ioweyou1 (£137.18 in chips)
Seat 6: Thebat (£75.05 in chips)
Seat 7: blackdog (£51.15 in chips)
Seat 8: Ewan003 (£27.05 in chips)
Seat 10: Tracey501 (£33.22 in chips)
Thebat: posts small blind £0.25
blackdog: posts big blind £0.50
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to gabezor [Qh Ks]
Ewan003: folds
Tracey501: calls £0.50
Eugen3004: calls £0.50
si jh: folds
gabezor: raises £1
Ioweyou1: folds
Thebat: folds
blackdog: raises £1
Tracey501: folds
Eugen3004: calls £1
gabezor: calls £0.50
----- FLOP ----- [Js 6c 9s]
blackdog: bets £0.50
Eugen3004: calls £0.50
gabezor: raises £1
blackdog: calls £0.50
Eugen3004: calls £0.50
----- TURN ----- [Js 6c 9s][Qc]
blackdog: bets £1
Eugen3004: calls £1
gabezor: raises £2
blackdog: calls £1
Eugen3004: folds
----- RIVER ----- [Js 6c 9s Qc][Jc]
blackdog: bets £1
gabezor: raises £2
blackdog: calls £1
I mix up whether I raise or limp there pre-flop. I call the flop. I raise the turn. I call the river (but then again we all know how weak and passive I am on the river - insert anklegrabbing icon here).
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