Loose 7 card stud for HE players

**Fnord** · 04-12-2004 08:01 PM

In stud streets roughly map as follows:

3rd street - pre-flop (play/dump decision 1)
4rth/5th street - flop (play/dump decision 2)
5th/6th street - turn (call on pot odds, raise for value)
river- bet/raise/call for value

Big live card are important! There is a huge difference between J J 8 when there is another Jack (or two) out vs both of them being live. A live 8 helps a lot too.

You want a strong 2 pair or better by the river, otherwise you're probably behind unless you can get it to heads up really fast. I tend to play strong hands very aggressivly early, but am quick to take my foot off the accelerator if no help comes.

Often in a no-fold'em game it often comes down to my 2 pair or trips against draw(s) with 1 or 2 streets to go. If I make my boat I win. If they miss I win. If we both hit the river might get capped and I win.

Starting hands:

2 in the hole, 1 up (door card)

3 of a kind - The bomb. Roughly equal to AA or KK, but better and less common. Always play it, only question is how fast.

Live pair of 10 or better - Quality, play in all but the most hopeless pots. Concealed pairs are better than split pairs (one showing) because of deception value. However, if a live door card bigger than your pair gets aggressive, fold on 3rd street unless you have a bigger kicker.

Small pair - Junk to quality depending on how live the cards are and how big your kicker is. 2 2 K is very playable if the cards are all live.

3 to a flush - Big cards are key, otherwise it's a maginal hand. Either way you want to see a cheap 4rth/5th street and dump it if it doesn't improve.

2 live face cards - Limpable. Helps to have a little bit of a straight going or a 2 flush. Just like 3 to a flush, look for quick, cheap help and dump it if it doesn't come. I play these hands so I don't look too tight.

Dead pair of Aces/Kings - Playable if you can limit the field, otherwise it's weak. Live kicker helps.

Streets:

3rd street - If you got a strong starting hand you want to raise and re-raise here to limit the field if you can put players (with weak door cards) in a position to cold call mulitple bets. Lots of draws will kill you, make them pay or make them fold.

4rth street - Double bet/raise is allowed if there is a pair showing. Use it to further limit the field. A key concept is that you want to (re)raise to eliminate even if think you have the second best hand, but have a good chance to improve. If the double bet busts out, it's pretty much a play/fold decision you'll be married to for the rest of the hand.

5th street - Increases to a full bet, giving you a final chance to limit the field or fold if not much happened on 4rth street. Otherwise bet/raise for value and call on pot odds.

6th street - bet/raise for value, call on pot odds. At this point everyone is pretty much pot committed.

River - Play it just like the river in hold'em. Bet/raise strong hands, check/call lukewarm and weak ones. Only fold a busted draw with no chance of winning the pot or a lukewarm hand if a (re)raising war starts since you're often getting 10 to 1 or better on your call.

Misc:

Be careful of paired door cards, look at the other cards out to determine if it's likely they made trips. In general call down represented flushes once the pot is big enough to protect against the semi-bluff, particulary if you have a draw to a better hand.

**mike4066** · 04-12-2004 08:10 PM

Sounds like a good starting point thanks Fnord..

**fishstick** · 04-12-2004 09:34 PM

looks good!

definitely a more complex game.

**Fnord** · 04-14-2004 06:04 AM

Up over $200 after playing a little 3 or so days. I think my EV at Stud is higher than NLHE if this keeps up.

I mean come-on. This idiot calls a double raise with Ace high, catches 2 Aces and still loses!

***** Hand History for Game 524606305 *****
0.50/1 SevenStudHiGameTable (Limit) - Wed Apr 14 00:22:08 EDT 2004
Table Table 10788 (Real Money)
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: tsher ( $24.75)
Seat 2: Gooch3 ( $28.75)
Seat 3: budalli ( $31.50)
Seat 4: wildcatfan44 ( $52.50)
Seat 5: detention ( $14.50)
Seat 6: Jehoshaphat ( $21.50)
Seat 7: HenryFnord ( $60.25)
Seat 8: sawicki ( $13.25)
tsher posts ante (0.25)
Gooch3 posts ante (0.25)
budalli posts ante (0.25)
wildcatfan44 posts ante (0.25)
detention posts ante (0.25)
Jehoshaphat posts ante (0.25)
HenryFnord posts ante (0.25)
sawicki posts ante (0.25)
** Dealing **
Dealt to tsher [ 4c ]
Dealt to Gooch3 [ Jh ]
Dealt to budalli [ 9h ]
Dealt to wildcatfan44 [ 5s ]
Dealt to detention [ 9d ]
Dealt to Jehoshaphat [ 5c ]
Dealt to HenryFnord [ 8c, Js ]
Dealt to HenryFnord [ Jd ]
Dealt to sawicki [ 7d ]
tsher bring-ins (0.25)
Gooch3 calls (0.25)
budalli calls (0.25)
wildcatfan44 calls (0.25)
detention calls (0.25)
Jehoshaphat calls (0.25)
HenryFnord calls (0.25)
sawicki calls (0.25)
** Dealing Fourth street **
Dealt to tsher [ 4h ]
Dealt to Gooch3 [ Ah ]
Dealt to budalli [ 8d ]
Dealt to wildcatfan44 [ 8s ]
Dealt to detention [ Qs ]
Dealt to Jehoshaphat [ 2s ]
Dealt to HenryFnord [ Qc ]
Dealt to sawicki [ 4s ]
tsher checks.
Gooch3 checks.
budalli checks.
wildcatfan44 checks.
detention checks.
Jehoshaphat bets (0.50)
HenryFnord double raises (1.50)
sawicki folds.
tsher calls (1.50)
Gooch3 calls (1.50)
budalli calls (1.50)
wildcatfan44 calls (1.50)
detention folds.
Jehoshaphat calls (1)
** Dealing Fifth street **
Dealt to tsher [ 6s ]
Dealt to Gooch3 [ Ac ]
Dealt to budalli [ Jc ]
Dealt to wildcatfan44 [ Qd ]
Dealt to Jehoshaphat [ 2h ]
Dealt to HenryFnord [ 9c ]
Gooch3 bets (1)
budalli calls (1)
wildcatfan44 calls (1)
Jehoshaphat calls (1)
HenryFnord calls (1)
tsher calls (1)
** Dealing Sixth street **
Dealt to tsher [ Tc ]
Dealt to Gooch3 [ Ad ]
Dealt to budalli [ 2c ]
Dealt to wildcatfan44 [ Kh ]
Dealt to Jehoshaphat [ Td ]
Dealt to HenryFnord [ Ts ]
Gooch3 bets (1)
budalli folds.
wildcatfan44 calls (1)
Jehoshaphat calls (1)
HenryFnord calls (1)
tsher folds.
** Dealing River **
Dealt to HenryFnord [ 6d ]
Gooch3 bets (1)
wildcatfan44 folds.
Jehoshaphat folds.
HenryFnord calls (1)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $24 | Rake: $1
tsher balance $21.75, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX 4c 4h 6s Tc ]
Gooch3 balance $23.75, lost $5 [ 2d Ks Jh Ah Ac Ad 8h ] [ three of a kind, aces -- Ah,Ac,Ad,Ks,Jh ]
budalli balance $28.50, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX 9h 8d Jc 2c ]
wildcatfan44 balance $48.50, lost $4 (folded) [ XX XX 5s 8s Qd Kh XX ]
detention balance $14, lost $0.50 (folded) [ XX XX 9d Qs ]
Jehoshaphat balance $17.50, lost $4 (folded) [ XX XX 5c 2s 2h Td XX ]
HenryFnord balance $79.25, bet $5, collected $24, net +$19 [ 8c Js Jd Qc 9c Ts 6d ] [ a straight, eight to queen -- Qc,Js,Ts,9c,8c ]
sawicki balance $12.75, lost $0.50 (folded) [ XX XX 7d 4s ]

**Fnord** · 04-27-2004 08:33 AM

In a multi-pot a 4 flush on 4rth street rules!

This is a hand you don't get in hold'em, since you jump from 2 to 5 cards. With 4 suited cards you got just under a 50% chance of completing depending on how many are already out. Great chance to pump up the pot on 4rth (double bet/raise if you can), check/call until it hits, then ram and jam some more.

**Xianti** · 08-06-2004 10:53 PM

Fnord: May I move this topic to the new 7 Card Stud forum?

**Fnord** · 08-07-2004 01:37 AM

Sure, move it.

08-07-2004 12:05 PM

I've played quite a bit of seven card stud in my time, its quite a good game.

The starting hands I generally play are concealed pairs, split pairs (big or small), three of a kind, 3 flushes and 3 straights.

And just a a general rule, I say that I have to make my draw or my hand by fifth street, otherwise I get out of the hand.

**Fnord** · 08-07-2004 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by dwarfman1990

The starting hands I generally play are concealed pairs, split pairs (big or small), three of a kind, 3 flushes and 3 straights.

3 straights are over-rated. Particularly if they don't have 2 to a flush.

How live your hand is, is also HUGE. In a wild game, I'll fold split Kings if one of my other 2 Kings is out.

**twosevoff** · 08-10-2004 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by dwarfman1990

The starting hands I generally play are concealed pairs, split pairs (big or small), three of a kind, 3 flushes and 3 straights.

3 straights are over-rated. Particularly if they don't have 2 to a flush.

How live your hand is, is also HUGE. In a wild game, I'll fold split Kings if one of my other 2 Kings is out.

Are live cards really that important for big pairs though? After all, how many times do you catch trips starting with a pair? And if you do make trips with a big split pair after you've raised and bet, it's often hard to get action. Additionally, if one or more of your paired cards is showing and you raise, other people will tend to not give you credit for the pair when you raise on third and come in with weaker holdings that you are a big favorite against (especially if, like I do, you often raise with a big up card and a small concealed pair or three flush). Of course, this assumes that the other players are also reasonably competent, so it may be different for a wild game, and with smaller pairs (22-99), if any of your paired cards is exposed, it's more or less an automatic throwaway. Still, I think that most of the value in starting with big pairs comes with taking the pot down early, hitting two pair and getting inferior hands to call you down, and making draws pay to try to make their hands, not in making trips.

**Fnord** · 08-10-2004 03:15 AM

If a pot isn't heads up really fast having big dead cards doesn't cut it.

o In wild games you will get called down with trips (particularly by strong draws and smaller trips.)
o Trips can turn into a full house to take down someone else's flush or better yet boat over boat for really BIG pots.
o With lots of players running any pair, you often will be up against trips
o If you have a big dead card up, your bets won't get much respect.

**wesrman** · 03-31-2008 04:05 AM

Sticky ?????????

**TLR** · 03-31-2008 06:08 PM

Wesrman, do you think you can add some more pointers then we will sticky it

**wesrman** · 03-31-2008 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by TLR

Wesrman, do you think you can add some more pointers then we will sticky it

How about making my links page a sticky??
I have this link there.
We can still add to posts that are stickies right?

Besides im not that good. So i dont feel that good about giving general advice.

04-12-2004 08:01 PM #1
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	Loose 7 card stud for HE players In stud streets roughly map as follows: 3rd street - pre-flop (play/dump decision 1) 4rth/5th street - flop (play/dump decision 2) 5th/6th street - turn (call on pot odds, raise for value) river- bet/raise/call for value Big live card are important! There is a huge difference between J J 8 when there is another Jack (or two) out vs both of them being live. A live 8 helps a lot too. You want a strong 2 pair or better by the river, otherwise you're probably behind unless you can get it to heads up really fast. I tend to play strong hands very aggressivly early, but am quick to take my foot off the accelerator if no help comes. Often in a no-fold'em game it often comes down to my 2 pair or trips against draw(s) with 1 or 2 streets to go. If I make my boat I win. If they miss I win. If we both hit the river might get capped and I win. Starting hands: 2 in the hole, 1 up (door card) 3 of a kind - The bomb. Roughly equal to AA or KK, but better and less common. Always play it, only question is how fast. Live pair of 10 or better - Quality, play in all but the most hopeless pots. Concealed pairs are better than split pairs (one showing) because of deception value. However, if a live door card bigger than your pair gets aggressive, fold on 3rd street unless you have a bigger kicker. Small pair - Junk to quality depending on how live the cards are and how big your kicker is. 2 2 K is very playable if the cards are all live. 3 to a flush - Big cards are key, otherwise it's a maginal hand. Either way you want to see a cheap 4rth/5th street and dump it if it doesn't improve. 2 live face cards - Limpable. Helps to have a little bit of a straight going or a 2 flush. Just like 3 to a flush, look for quick, cheap help and dump it if it doesn't come. I play these hands so I don't look too tight. Dead pair of Aces/Kings - Playable if you can limit the field, otherwise it's weak. Live kicker helps. Streets: 3rd street - If you got a strong starting hand you want to raise and re-raise here to limit the field if you can put players (with weak door cards) in a position to cold call mulitple bets. Lots of draws will kill you, make them pay or make them fold. 4rth street - Double bet/raise is allowed if there is a pair showing. Use it to further limit the field. A key concept is that you want to (re)raise to eliminate even if think you have the second best hand, but have a good chance to improve. If the double bet busts out, it's pretty much a play/fold decision you'll be married to for the rest of the hand. 5th street - Increases to a full bet, giving you a final chance to limit the field or fold if not much happened on 4rth street. Otherwise bet/raise for value and call on pot odds. 6th street - bet/raise for value, call on pot odds. At this point everyone is pretty much pot committed. River - Play it just like the river in hold'em. Bet/raise strong hands, check/call lukewarm and weak ones. Only fold a busted draw with no chance of winning the pot or a lukewarm hand if a (re)raising war starts since you're often getting 10 to 1 or better on your call. Misc: Be careful of paired door cards, look at the other cards out to determine if it's likely they made trips. In general call down represented flushes once the pot is big enough to protect against the semi-bluff, particulary if you have a draw to a better hand.

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04-12-2004 08:10 PM #2
mike4066 View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 1,663	Sounds like a good starting point thanks Fnord..

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04-12-2004 09:34 PM #3
fishstick View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Mar 2004 Posts 971 Location Carlsbad, CA	looks good! definitely a more complex game.

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04-14-2004 06:04 AM #4
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	Up over $200 after playing a little 3 or so days. I think my EV at Stud is higher than NLHE if this keeps up. I mean come-on. This idiot calls a double raise with Ace high, catches 2 Aces and still loses! *** Hand History for Game 524606305 * 0.50/1 SevenStudHiGameTable (Limit) - Wed Apr 14 00:22:08 EDT 2004 Table Table 10788 (Real Money) Total number of players : 8 Seat 1: tsher ( $24.75) Seat 2: Gooch3 ( $28.75) Seat 3: budalli ( $31.50) Seat 4: wildcatfan44 ( $52.50) Seat 5: detention ( $14.50) Seat 6: Jehoshaphat ( $21.50) Seat 7: HenryFnord ( $60.25) Seat 8: sawicki ( $13.25) tsher posts ante (0.25) Gooch3 posts ante (0.25) budalli posts ante (0.25) wildcatfan44 posts ante (0.25) detention posts ante (0.25) Jehoshaphat posts ante (0.25) HenryFnord posts ante (0.25) sawicki posts ante (0.25) Dealing Dealt to tsher [ 4c ] Dealt to Gooch3 [ Jh ] Dealt to budalli [ 9h ] Dealt to wildcatfan44 [ 5s ] Dealt to detention [ 9d ] Dealt to Jehoshaphat [ 5c ] Dealt to HenryFnord [ 8c, Js ] Dealt to HenryFnord [ Jd ] Dealt to sawicki [ 7d ] tsher bring-ins (0.25) Gooch3 calls (0.25) budalli calls (0.25) wildcatfan44 calls (0.25) detention calls (0.25) Jehoshaphat calls (0.25) HenryFnord calls (0.25) sawicki calls (0.25) Dealing Fourth street Dealt to tsher [ 4h ] Dealt to Gooch3 [ Ah ] Dealt to budalli [ 8d ] Dealt to wildcatfan44 [ 8s ] Dealt to detention [ Qs ] Dealt to Jehoshaphat [ 2s ] Dealt to HenryFnord [ Qc ] Dealt to sawicki [ 4s ] tsher checks. Gooch3 checks. budalli checks. wildcatfan44 checks. detention checks. Jehoshaphat bets (0.50) HenryFnord double raises (1.50) sawicki folds. tsher calls (1.50) Gooch3 calls (1.50) budalli calls (1.50) wildcatfan44 calls (1.50) detention folds. Jehoshaphat calls (1) Dealing Fifth street Dealt to tsher [ 6s ] Dealt to Gooch3 [ Ac ] Dealt to budalli [ Jc ] Dealt to wildcatfan44 [ Qd ] Dealt to Jehoshaphat [ 2h ] Dealt to HenryFnord [ 9c ] Gooch3 bets (1) budalli calls (1) wildcatfan44 calls (1) Jehoshaphat calls (1) HenryFnord calls (1) tsher calls (1) Dealing Sixth street Dealt to tsher [ Tc ] Dealt to Gooch3 [ Ad ] Dealt to budalli [ 2c ] Dealt to wildcatfan44 [ Kh ] Dealt to Jehoshaphat [ Td ] Dealt to HenryFnord [ Ts ] Gooch3 bets (1) budalli folds. wildcatfan44 calls (1) Jehoshaphat calls (1) HenryFnord calls (1) tsher folds. Dealing River Dealt to HenryFnord [ 6d ] Gooch3 bets (1) wildcatfan44 folds. Jehoshaphat folds. HenryFnord calls (1) Summary ** Main Pot: $24 \| Rake: $1 tsher balance $21.75, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX 4c 4h 6s Tc ] Gooch3 balance $23.75, lost $5 [ 2d Ks Jh Ah Ac Ad 8h ] [ three of a kind, aces -- Ah,Ac,Ad,Ks,Jh ] budalli balance $28.50, lost $3 (folded) [ XX XX 9h 8d Jc 2c ] wildcatfan44 balance $48.50, lost $4 (folded) [ XX XX 5s 8s Qd Kh XX ] detention balance $14, lost $0.50 (folded) [ XX XX 9d Qs ] Jehoshaphat balance $17.50, lost $4 (folded) [ XX XX 5c 2s 2h Td XX ] HenryFnord balance $79.25, bet $5, collected $24, net +$19 [ 8c Js Jd Qc 9c Ts 6d ] [ a straight, eight to queen -- Qc,Js,Ts,9c,8c ] sawicki balance $12.75, lost $0.50 (folded) [ XX XX 7d 4s ]

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04-27-2004 08:33 AM #5
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	In a multi-pot a 4 flush on 4rth street rules! This is a hand you don't get in hold'em, since you jump from 2 to 5 cards. With 4 suited cards you got just under a 50% chance of completing depending on how many are already out. Great chance to pump up the pot on 4rth (double bet/raise if you can), check/call until it hits, then ram and jam some more.

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Loose 7 card stud for HE players

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Loose 7 card stud for HE players

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08-06-2004 10:53 PM #6
Xianti View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Visit Homepage Retired forum manager Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 9,245 Location facebook.com/socialmediarts	Fnord: May I move this topic to the new 7 Card Stud forum?

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08-07-2004 01:37 AM #7
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	Sure, move it.
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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08-07-2004 12:05 PM #8
Guest	I've played quite a bit of seven card stud in my time, its quite a good game. The starting hands I generally play are concealed pairs, split pairs (big or small), three of a kind, 3 flushes and 3 straights. And just a a general rule, I say that I have to make my draw or my hand by fifth street, otherwise I get out of the hand.

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08-07-2004 12:40 PM #9
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	Originally Posted by dwarfman1990 The starting hands I generally play are concealed pairs, split pairs (big or small), three of a kind, 3 flushes and 3 straights. 3 straights are over-rated. Particularly if they don't have 2 to a flush. How live your hand is, is also HUGE. In a wild game, I'll fold split Kings if one of my other 2 Kings is out.
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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08-10-2004 02:58 AM #10
twosevoff View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date May 2004 Posts 512	Originally Posted by Fnord Originally Posted by dwarfman1990 The starting hands I generally play are concealed pairs, split pairs (big or small), three of a kind, 3 flushes and 3 straights. 3 straights are over-rated. Particularly if they don't have 2 to a flush. How live your hand is, is also HUGE. In a wild game, I'll fold split Kings if one of my other 2 Kings is out. Are live cards really that important for big pairs though? After all, how many times do you catch trips starting with a pair? And if you do make trips with a big split pair after you've raised and bet, it's often hard to get action. Additionally, if one or more of your paired cards is showing and you raise, other people will tend to not give you credit for the pair when you raise on third and come in with weaker holdings that you are a big favorite against (especially if, like I do, you often raise with a big up card and a small concealed pair or three flush). Of course, this assumes that the other players are also reasonably competent, so it may be different for a wild game, and with smaller pairs (22-99), if any of your paired cards is exposed, it's more or less an automatic throwaway. Still, I think that most of the value in starting with big pairs comes with taking the pot down early, hitting two pair and getting inferior hands to call you down, and making draws pay to try to make their hands, not in making trips.

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08-10-2004 03:15 AM #11
Fnord View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2003 Posts 19,381 Location I'll Do You Like A Truck	If a pot isn't heads up really fast having big dead cards doesn't cut it. o In wild games you will get called down with trips (particularly by strong draws and smaller trips.) o Trips can turn into a full house to take down someone else's flush or better yet boat over boat for really BIG pots. o With lots of players running any pair, you often will be up against trips o If you have a big dead card up, your bets won't get much respect.
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
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03-31-2008 04:05 AM #12
wesrman View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2007 Posts 3,790 Location Leaf Nation	Sticky ?????????

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03-31-2008 06:08 PM #13
TLR View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Aug 2004 Posts 5,909	Wesrman, do you think you can add some more pointers then we will sticky it

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03-31-2008 06:10 PM #14
wesrman View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message Join Date Dec 2007 Posts 3,790 Location Leaf Nation	Originally Posted by TLR Wesrman, do you think you can add some more pointers then we will sticky it How about making my links page a sticky?? I have this link there. We can still add to posts that are stickies right? Besides im not that good. So i dont feel that good about giving general advice.

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