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Fnord
Old 08-24-2007, 12:21 PM     Post subject: LoL @ Online Poker #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Fnord is SB with K, K.
UTG raises, MP calls, 1 fold, Fnord 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 3, 6, J (3 players)
Fnord bets, UTG raises, MP folds, Fnord 3-bets, UTG caps, Fnord calls.

Turn: (9 BB) T (2 players)
Fnord bets, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with Q, A.
UTG raises, MP calls, Fnord 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG caps, MP calls, Fnord calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) K, 7, 8 (3 players)
UTG bets, MP folds, Fnord calls.

Turn: (7.70 BB) J (2 players)
UTG bets, Fnord raises, UTG 3-bets, Fnord caps, UTG calls.

River: (15.70 BB) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets, Fnord raises, UTG calls $2.50 (All-In).

Final Pot: 18.20 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Ac Ks (one pair, kings).
Fnord has Qd Ad (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Fnord wins 18.95 BB.

The difference between Online and Live play is amazing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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euphoricism
Old 08-24-2007, 12:28 PM #2 (permalink)  
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hyper aggro donkeys online
hyper passive morons live.

If theyd just cut the fucking rake, LHE would be the game to play again.
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arborman
Old 08-24-2007, 04:55 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Heads up is a dream which is almost unattainable at limits under $1/$2 - at least in my limited experience.

That said, given how much I suck at no limit, LHE is the place for me exactly because of hands like that, and players that are unable to recognize an obvious flush or straight.
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Fnord
Old 08-24-2007, 05:30 PM #4 (permalink)  
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My thoery is that online poker doesn't give people the social clues and immediate peer feedback (LOL) that help get ones' thought process past "ZOMG AK HIT" and "ZOMG I HAVE BIG POCKET PAIR" and "ZOMG MASH RAISE BUTTON BECAUSE CALLING IS FOR LOSERS".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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arborman
Old 08-24-2007, 06:34 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
My thoery is that online poker doesn't give people the social clues and immediate peer feedback (LOL) that help get ones' thought process past "ZOMG AK HIT" and "ZOMG I HAVE BIG POCKET PAIR" and "ZOMG MASH RAISE BUTTON BECAUSE CALLING IS FOR LOSERS".
That and the fact that they have AK, which is (to them) like a guarantee of winning no matter the board. And they saw joeflopdude call down a huge pot with a massive flush board and win with his middle pair, so it will probably happen to them too. Same reason you see people raising and capping a 4 suited board when they have the two to complete the flush - sometimes it wins, though usually it doesn't. IT"S A FLUSH!! OMG! KACHING!

Yesterday I had a funny hand where I raised :Qd: from SB against about 4 fishy limpers, and all of them called along with the tagg BB.

hits, and I check waiting for a bet from anyone with a flush or draw.

It's checked around and we get on the turn. No way I'm betting anything now.

Checked around again and it's on river. Somebody must have a middle or low heart, and they will call if I bet, so none of my chips will enter this pot. I want tax receipts if I'm going to make a donation.

Checked around and I win with a pair of kings - 6 people in the pot and not a single heart among us. That's enough to make half those guys bet like maniacs next time they have high pair on a flush board. And enough to make the other players, who probably folded hearts, decide to bet that next time they have a flush draw.

One guy called me a loser for not betting.
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Fnord
Old 08-24-2007, 06:41 PM #6 (permalink)  
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First, people don't tend not to make those tunnel vision raises in live games. They put you on absurdly strong hands, then check the river behind.

Second, raising KQo out of the SB in a fishy game isn't doing much good for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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arborman
Old 08-24-2007, 06:48 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord

Second, raising KQo out of the SB in a fishy game isn't doing much good for you.
You're right and its a leak for sure, now that you call attention to it.
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Fnord
Old 08-24-2007, 07:06 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Just to be clear there are a bunch of problems with the raise:
o You're building a pot, giving proper odds to chase
o You set-up the expectation that you will bet, making it harder to define other hands.
o When you flop top pair, passive players will tend to just call.
o You're out of position.
o 2 out of 3 times you're going to miss the flop.

You certainly have an equity edge pre-flop, but it's not enough to make up for how it makes this hand harder to play post-flop. However, if you are suited then you should raise because of the larger equity edge and you figure to hit the board more often.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 08-24-2007, 08:54 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 6max online now even at stars is very aggressive its quite insane. It seems like everyone is a 40/20 and they have to keep it that way or else they can't play. They count on the nits folding marginal hands for one bet in big pots.


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

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arborman
Old 08-24-2007, 09:01 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
However, if you are suited then you should raise because of the larger equity edge and you figure to hit the board more often.
Good points all. I think my biggest leak preflop is figuring out how to play the unsuited face card connectors in and out of position, especially in the blinds. Were I to play it again I'd likely complete the SB and have a look at the flop to make my next decision.

It was a very unusual sort of hand in how it developed. I would have folded to any bet, especially after the turn (but probably any bet to be honest with that flop).
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DrivingDog
Old 08-24-2007, 10:50 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arborman
Good points all. I think my biggest leak preflop is figuring out how to play the unsuited face card connectors in and out of position, especially in the blinds.
If you're interested, i posted a blurb on this in Chopper's HH thread which gives basically the same reasons as Fnord did with explanations.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Fnord
Old 08-25-2007, 12:50 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Raise range out of the blinds if no one has raised yet...

Tight:
JJ+, AK, ATs+, KQs

More aggressive:
TT+, AQ+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs

BIG POTS FUN:
add KTs, QTs and JTs

If it figures to go 7+ way and you want to be silly
add 99 + 88 and don't c-bet unless you hit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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TylerK
Old 08-25-2007, 01:35 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Raise range out of the blinds if no one has raised yet...
very highly dependent upon the number of limpers.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 08-25-2007, 07:43 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord

If it figures to go 7+ way and you want to be silly
add 99 + 88 and don't c-bet unless you hit.
the table will hate you...


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
 
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DrivingDog
Old 08-26-2007, 11:11 AM #15 (permalink)  
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PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (8 SB) , , (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP calls, Button folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP calls.

River: (8.50 BB) (3 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 9h 4h (two pair, nines and sevens).
MP has Ac 9c (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: MP wins 13.50 BB.


Q: How many players out there think three pair is the nuts?
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 08-26-2007, 07:11 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 I'd prlly call the river raise, but I mat not betting this river unless you're sure they have lower Ax. You still played it good though.


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
 
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KoRnholio
Old 08-26-2007, 07:50 PM #17 (permalink)  
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 Heads up I'd call that river raise, but over-calling I could go either way.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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DrivingDog
Old 08-26-2007, 08:33 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I'd prlly call the river raise, but I mat not betting this river unless you're sure they have lower Ax. You still played it good though.
Thanks. FWIW, BB is 75/25 and goes to the river whenever he's in the pot. When he called the pfr, i couldn't put him on anything but some random average two cards until he raised the river when i thought he had either a 7 or a 9. MP is 35/0 but sensibly aggresssive postflop so i figured him for Ace-rag after the flop and turn calls. On the river when BB raised I wasn't too worried but when MP called I'm thinking one of them must have me beat so i folded. I was right this time but yeah a call for one bet might have been correct.

Checking the river seemed like a bad idea since BB would pay off with anything (or raise three pair lol) and MP would pay off with a weaker Ace. Plus I would have had to call a single bet anyway. If MP had folded to the re-raise I would have definitely called BB down.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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