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| DoanDiggy |
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I just started playing LO8 after reading some of the tips and commentary on here, and I gotta say, it's a ton of fun while also being a very steady profit. I think my most profitable spots have been playing for high. Here was my favorite hand today: PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Preflop: Hero is CO with K  , 8 , J, A2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls Flop: (10 SB) A  , K, 4 (5 players)SB checks, BB bets, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, MP2 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls, MP2 calls Turn: (13 BB) Q (4 players)SB checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks River: (13 BB) 7 (4 players)SB checks, BB bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB 3-bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls Total pot: $25 (25 BB) | Rake: $0.50 Results: SB had 3  , 2, 4, Q (Hi: two pair, Queens and fours, Lo: [ 7, 4, 3, 2, A ]).BB had 3 , A, 2, 10 (Hi: one pair, Aces, Lo: [ 7, 4, 3, 2, A ]).MP2 had 3 , 7, 2, 5 (Hi: one pair, sevens, Lo: [ 7, 4, 3, 2, A ]).Hero had K , 8, J, A (Hi: two pair, Aces and Kings).Outcome: SB won $4.10, BB won $4.10, MP2 won $4.05, Hero won $12.25 I should have made at least $4 more in the above hand with at least one more turn bet (being in position, I could be reasonably sure that no one had JT) and the final river cap. This was my first time in such a big LO8 pot, and I ended up playing it incorrectly as a result. It also didn't help that I didn't realize how aggressively these guys would be betting a nut low draw and then the nut low, so I wasn't positive my hand was good. In retrospect, I should have been reasonably sure on both the turn and the river that I was well ahead on the high end. It seems like so many people play for low that playing for high can be very profitable, especially in situations like the one above where you have several nut lows in the same hand against a strong high. Of course, it's not often that top two pair is the best hand, although with the action on this hand, I think I could be reasonably sure that it was. So far this game seems a lot easier, at least at these stakes, than NLHE. I still like to play in big NLHE tourneys (1 or 2) at the same time that I'm playing a couple LO8 tables. LO8 looks like it will be a great way to keep my bankroll healthy between big MTT wins. That said, it can make you a little loopy playing both games at once, like when you get dealt A2s in NLHE and your first instinct is that it's a good hand. |
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| drmcboy |
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I would not raise flop, you are playing for half and there are a ton of cards that will kill your hand. you just really got lucky everyone went low, you will see a set or straight almost all of the time here. also don't forget you can be quartered pretty easily with two pair. given you raised the river not betting the turn makes no sense, although I like the turn check. may be stake dependent, I have not played this low. |
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| DoanDiggy |
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I think stakes do have a big effect here. You can obviously tell by the play of MP2 (hand has no high potential and slim low potential) and BB (raising that hand preflop?) that these guys tend to overplay the low half of the pot. I agree that raising the flop wasn't the best idea, but then assuming that it checks to me on the turn, I have to bet, right? And then I'm usually capping that river? I understand that I'm losing to JT, QQ, 77, or 44, but it seems like there are so many low hands showing up here that it's a good spot to get my money in against 3 opponents. Then again, is capping this flop so bad against 3 opponents? I'm obviously not too worried about AA or KK, but should I be that worried about 44? I feel like I'm getting called by a bunch of draws and low hands, and with so many players in the pot, this feels +EV to me, even if it does come with higher variance. I did have a question about my preflop play: Should I be playing this hand? I think it's a clear yes if the A and K are on the split suits, but I'm not too confident with a J-high flush, so the value there is definitely diminished. Is this the kind of hand I should just be folding preflop? What about a hand like A234 rainbow? I know this can scoop with a wheel and it has a great shot at low, but it also has a great shot of completely whiffing and being worthless. So, limp it in and at least see a flop? One other place I have trouble is knowing when it makes sense to raise preflop, or to open the action with a raise. I will almost never raise from early position, not wanting to kill the action behind me. With a hand like AA2Xds (where X is 3-5 or T-K) in late position, I'm obviously raising to juice up the pot. It seems like there are also a fair number of high hands that I should probably be raising with, but I'm having a hard time recognizing when that is an appropriate move. Or is it fine at low stakes to just leave most of the pot building to postflop, once we have a better idea of the strength of our hand? |
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| drmcboy |
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read Ray Zee's book I would mostly only raise with AA2x types or other monsters or in spots where maybe you can buy the button/steal, which it doesn't look like you will be doing much of with people playing 7532. my problem with the flop is any heart, 3,2,4,5 should beat you (if you are best now) but you're probably going to be stuck to the end once it gets capped on the flop. pre flop is kinda meh, if you're going to play for half anyway I would rather have all 4 working. But, you won 1/2 a pot with two pair so in this game it can't be much wrong. Mostly I replied because I don't think you should take the lessen that capping pots with the non nut high with a low out is good. You seemed to be beating yourself up for not making more, whereas imo you should be thinking exactly the opposite and you got waaay more profit than you should normally expect. |
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| TLR |
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While you won the pot I think you played this hand pretty badly. Preflop is fine, you called and saw a flop with an OK hand Flop: With s many people seeing the flop your hand is strong, and almost all the deck is a scare card for you, any heart except the K of heart is bad for you, any low card except A is bad for you, J, T or Q are bad for you, pretty much the only safe cards is the deck for you are A,K and non heart 9 and with a pot this big no good draw is going anywhere. Considering the amount of people in the pot you can assume all Aces are dead With a bet and a call in front of you raising is throwing money away. given the size of the pot and your position calling to draw to the boat is marginally OK I think Turn: Definitly check behind, there are so may hands you are behind now that it makes little sense to bet, picking up 2nd nut draw to the spade flush is nice but again betting here is throwing money away River: you can call since you almost close the action and SB was passive in this hand, but more often then not you will be beat here for high, raising is a mistake again |
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| DoanDiggy |
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Thanks a lot for the criticism, now I consider a lot more what cards can come that help me, and what can come and destroy my hand. One thing that I don't understand in the above example is why a low non-heart would be a scare card for me on the turn; most of the time, I'm still playing for the top half in a pot with 4 people. I can see why capping the flop is a bad idea (I could be up against a set rather than a nut low draw, and there are a lot of bad draws for me), but after everyone checks on the turn, why should I expect that anyone has the nut straight? Doesn't this make an in-position bet reasonable on the turn? Finally, if we're not capping this river, why even play for high? Are we afraid someone has 2377 or 23QQ/23TJ (and wasn't betting the turn)? I do agree that playing top 2 pair as described here (not as played) is a high-risk move, but can we really say that it is -EV at these stakes? All that said, I played a lot better today... I think I was up about $50 at $.50/$1 while playing for about 8 hours on two tables. That was even while bricking some huge scooping draws (like a river A when I had A2s nut low, nut flush draw). I was also playing some NLHE MTTs, where I think I was just under breaking even (I had a horrible run on one table where QQ lost to AT, JJ lost to AJ, and TT lost to A7). So yeah, I'm definitely loving LO8. The income is very steady and the game is fun. It's perfect for mixing in with a high-variance money-earner like NLHE MTTs. |
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| TLR |
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Any low card is a scare card for you because 1. It takes away 1/2 your pot 2. 2,3 and 5 complete a str8 3. any other card gives opponents a free roll for a str8, flush or trips In this specific pot you have a very weak high hand, there are 6 hands that beat you (any set and JT) people can very easily back up into a better hand when going for low |
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| DoanDiggy |
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OK, I gotcha now. I wasn't too worried about #1, but I definitely should have taken #2 and #3 more seriously. So if someone is freerolling off me, it's OK to stay in the hand, but not to bet or raise? In general then, in a multiway pot, I should only be betting/raising nut low or nut high (without the other half) or perhaps a hand like 2nd-3rd nut low + 2nd-3rd nut high (where the action and board means I'm likely to have at least one of them)? And I should only be raising the flop and turn with good low + nut high (and vice versa) draws? Heads-up after the river, I should only bet/raise a good low if I also have a decent chance at scooping? And I should only bet/raise a good high if I have a crappy low, if there is no low (or not likely to be a low), if I might get a crappy low to fold, or if I'm pretty sure my opponent is on a worse high hand? I think part of the problem is that I'm still in the NLHE mindset that check/calling is generally a weak play. As it turns out, if I feel like there's a good shot that I have low or high, I should be check/calling, and I should only be betting or raising when I'm like 80% sure that it's going to increase my winnings in the final pot. At least, this is what I'm starting to realize based on the comments here and my observations from playing. Am I on the right track? |
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| drmcboy |
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my guess is you can kill this game playing a lot of hands passively pre, then just drawing at the nuts. Again read ray zee. If you have a one way only hand you want people in (knocking people out with the same hand is great but will probably never happen at this level) and you have to be drawing to the nuts. If you have a nut low draw with some possibility for high and you may be able to knock people out go ahead and try. If you're drawing at the nuts both ways do whatever gets more money in the pot - usually c/c in EP and betting in LP or raising after a bet and a few calls. Obv these are very general. |
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| TLR |
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It is very hard to give general guidelines to follow. Usually you only want to bet with the nuts or draw to the nuts, however there are situations where you want to raise to eliminate an opponent going one way and play head up with someone to allow you to pick up 1/2 the pot with a weaker hand. In a multiway pot (4 or more) I play straight-forward, I only put my money in with a good hand or strong draw. Limit is different from no limit and holdem is different from O8, there is little that carries over well between the games |
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| baudib |
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| AKJ8 double-suited is really more of an Omaha hi hand; with little low potential you should fold most of the time if there are raises preflop. (limping in position or at passive preflop tables is fine). you get most of your profit by taking 3/4s or scooping big pots; without the nuts or strong draw to the nuts you want to get out pretty quickly most of the time; two pair or bottom set with no low draw or real redraws to the nuts is a sucker hand. | |||
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| DoanDiggy |
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I just made about $75 at $0.50/$1 today in a little more than 2 hours at 2 tables (from a little before 5 until the server restart at 7 am). Now I surely ran hot, but 35BB/hr is just insane. I saw a decent amount of flops, and when I felt I had the best hand and/or a great draw, I bet it. I also raised preflop with my good hands (suited A with good low, double-suited broadway high, all broadway with a pair, AA23, A223, A233, A234, etc) in later position or limp/reraised them in early position. The other thing I did was start seeing more flops cheaply with hands that had good high potential or decent high with decent low. By that, I mean hands like Q2sJ5s, 5667, K9sJ8s, etc. Taking the high half is just so profitable with 3 or more people in the hand, at least at these stakes. I also found that I had a good idea of when a bluff is a good play. One example is being in position with a board like KK9. If it got checked to me, a $0.50 bet here was often good enough to take down a $2+ pot (certainly better than 25% of the time). I also found that when I had a good low headsup (not necessarily nut low, but at least like 3rd nut low) and a flush draw missed the board, a river bet was sometimes enough to take down the whole pot. So I certainly ran hot, but I really feel like I have a better idea of what I'm doing in LO8 at this point, at least at these stakes. In general, I feel like I have better reads on what kind of hands my opponents are on. I'm having a ton of fun and making some good money, so I really like my progress so far. I think this was my biggest pot of the night. PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $1.00 BB (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 3 , A, 3, 2UTG raises, Hero calls, UTG+2 3-bets, 5 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, Hero caps, UTG+2 calls, SB calls, UTG calls Flop: (17 SB) 10 , 2, 10 (4 players)SB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls Turn: (10.5 BB) 3 (4 players)SB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, SB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 caps, SB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls River: (26.5 BB) 9 (4 players)SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, SB calls, 1 fold Total pot: $29.50 (29.5 BB) | Rake: $0.50 Results: SB had J , Q, Q, 10 (Hi: three of a kind, tens).Hero had 3 , A, 3, 2 (Hi: full house, threes over tens).UTG+2 mucked K , K, 4, 5 (Hi: two pair, Kings and tens).Outcome: Hero won $29 I like my preflop play in this hand, because I have so much scooping potential (setting my 3s, nut flush, and hitting the wheel). Postflop, I pretty much needed runner-runner (to the nut low and an A-high flush that might not be good), but getting 19-to-1 on a call, there was no way I was folding yet. On the turn, I'm only beat by quad 10s, but I also have no low. I like the raise/call/call here. I think flat calling is a bit too passive (comments?), and I think raise/cap is too aggressive. When SB checks the river, I'm pretty sure he hasn't filled up his 10s, so I like my bet here. I'm not sure why UTG+2 capped the turn, and I have no idea how he could think he might win the river. Here's one more big hand where I played pretty marginally (not terrible) and got lucky. PokerStars Limit Omaha Hi/Lo, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com Preflop: Hero is BB with 10 , Q, K, 4UTG calls, 5 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks Flop: (4 SB) 4 , J, 9 (4 players)SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, 1 fold, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, SB caps, Hero calls Turn: (6.5 BB) 6 (2 players)SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls River: (14.5 BB) 10 (2 players)SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls Total pot: $18.50 (18.5 BB) | Rake: $0.50 Results: SB mucked 2 , J, J, 10 (Hi: three of a kind, Jacks).Hero had 10 , Q, K, 4 (Hi: flush, King high).Outcome: Hero won $18 On both the flop and the turn, I thought my equity was better than it actually was. I knew I had a ton of outs, but I didn't actually take the time to count them and make sure. On the flop and turn, I was about 40-45%, so capping them was pretty bad. On a side note, I played some 0.02/0.05 ($10) ring NLHE. I usually just play tournaments, but they were down because of the pending server restart. I ran good there, too, and in little more than an hour I was up more than a buy-in. Getting AA twice, AK, AQs, hitting a river flush for a pretty big pot, flopping a set, flopping a straight, and winning an 88 vs AK short stack all-in certainly helped. Yeah, hot as hell. All-in-all, a good couple of hours. |
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| TLR |
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Hand1: While I can see a raise preflop I think capping with this hand is a bit too much. Calling the flop is OK, turn again I would not cap with the under boat and no low draw, you are beat not only by quad tens but also be T2 and T3. River is fine. Hand2: I would not 3bet the flop, you have a decent hand but not a made one, I would call.On the turn you are spewing chips, there is no reason to raise it, call and hope to hit |
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| DoanDiggy |
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Quote:
But yeah, with no low draw, not the best cap. I have this idea that a high hand gets value from low draws by betting the turn when there is no made low yet, but I'm not sure that it's right. Based on the cards in my hand and on the board, only half the deck helps a low. With something like 85%+ that I have high after the river and a 50% chance of no low, getting 2-to-1 on all of my bets, I still like capping this board. Even when there is a low, I'm still taking half of a 3-way pot most of the time. I guess it's a close call, though. Quote:
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| DoanDiggy |
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OK, so after continuing with the strategy outlined above, I think I was simply on a massive heater. It doesn't work at all at higher stakes (1/2), and even at .5/1, it was perhaps barely +EV. I just found myself showing up with the second nuts too often. I'm going to continue to see flops with high-only hands that work together well, but the mediocre high, mediocre low hands I was playing are just a good way to lose while calling down with non-nuts on both ends. |
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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