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Bear Bones
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02-20-2006, 05:20 PM
Post subject: Live KK hand
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 70
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Live 2/4 limit game. This is from memory, but is correct +/- a preflop caller. Full table is very loose passive, most flops see 6-8 callers which is maybe reduced to 4 or 5 for an early position raise. no special reads on villain, I haven't seen him take any big pots or show down bad cards. Hero is UTG with KK.
Hero raises, call, 3x fold, 3x call, fold, BB call
Flop A K x rainbow
Hero check, 2 checks, bet, all call <---- My thought here is to let an ace bet out, show some weakness and get more money in when the bets double.
Turn A
Hero bets, fold, call, raise, fold to hero, re-raise, fold, call
River T no possible flush on board
hero bets, raise, re-raise, call
Results in White
Villain turns over AT for a bigger full house.
Thoughts on my line, especially on the flop?
I would also like to get general thoughts on the table. I don't play much limit, especially live, but it was hard to find a line with 6 and 7 to the flop every hand. Bluffing was non-existing and while it would seem that many hands were getting the right odds at 6:1 pre-flop, with the large rake ($3/ hand; $4 for pots over $40) and so many hands to compete against it seemed that most people were just bleeding their stacks away over time. At 30 - 35 hands / hour the rake is taking close to 50 BB off of the table every hour. How do you make money at these tables and what is a good return on BB/hr.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Yeah the river sucks, whatever it happens.
With such a loose table, I'm donking this flop. Boards a little too coordinated for my tastes.
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poskid_1982
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
Posts: 392
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What are you talking about donking? He should simply bet out because most A's are calling his bet and may even raise him back where he can smooth call and now probably go for a c/r on the turn. He simply missed value because he's going for a c/r or slowplay with a strong hand on a good flop for a strong hand...Bet out for value since most players will sense a monster or that you completely missed when you raise UTG and then check a flop with a A and K in it.
I like this line
Bet/call flop...c/r turn...River is fine
PK
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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Quote:
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What are you talking about donking? He should simply bet out because most A's are calling his bet and may even raise him back where he can smooth call and now probably go for a c/r on the turn.
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Donk the flop = Bet out
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by poskid_1982
What are you talking about donking? He should simply bet out because most A's are calling his bet and may even raise him back where he can smooth call and now probably go for a c/r on the turn. He simply missed value because he's going for a c/r or slowplay with a strong hand on a good flop for a strong hand...Bet out for value since most players will sense a monster or that you completely missed when you raise UTG and then check a flop with a A and K in it.
I like this line
Bet/call flop...c/r turn...River is fine
PK
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Actually in retrospect, this line wins the least. A bet/threebet on the turn gets more money in the pot and doesn't scare out the people in between... Interestingly enough, a bet/call flop and donk/raise/cap turn might work well here.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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Checking the flop just loses value against loose passive opponents. I'd probably lead every street. Sometimes I'm tempted to check-raise the turn in situations like these, but you then risk a player in late position betting so that your raise forces out players, so I would probably bet the turn as well. I'd only try to check-raise if I was convinced a player to my immediate left was going to bet (edit: this refers to a turn check-raise).
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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If i am understanding the op correctly the villan is a loose passive player. If that is correct being at the table i would bet out on the flop
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
Checking the flop just loses value against loose passive opponents.
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Meh, the problem is that Ax will often bet but otherwise just call you all the way down, so trying to sneak in a c/r isn't that terrible.
I might find a river fold. The 3-bet is at least Aces full. Kings full no g00t.
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Bear Bones
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 70
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Yeah, I should probably be betting the flop. I was trying to keep as many in as I could on the flop. I don't think I can find a fold on the river given the pot size and the possibility that I am up against AQ/AJ/AX/TT/KT which I think play the same way for villian. AA and AK are very unlikely (3 total combinations) , the only hand I have any worry for here is the AT but there are only 6 combinations out there for that.
Thanks for the feedback. I don't post much here, but great site, it keeps me thinking. 
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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At stakes this low, I hate missing bets. Very few situations are good to slow play without a maniac or 2 at the table to drive the action. Can't fold the river heads up. As for a good rate, with that rake, if you are breaking even you are way better than the average player. 2 or 3 BB/hr would be very very good.
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