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Fnord
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04-02-2005, 01:17 PM
Post subject: Live 4/8 game hand
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#1 (permalink)
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Blowing steam at the local fishbowl. My table image is weak/tight and I'm on a rush with over $500 in chips in front of me. Half the table knows enough to get out of my way, but most of 'em are giving me too much action anyway.
3 limpers to me and I call on the button with   . Blinds come along too.
6 to the flop with 5sb in after rake + jackpot.
  
blinds check, EP bets, call, loose/passive lady on a bad run raises.
What's your play?
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Humphrind
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
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I fold. I'm not chasing in that pot. Sounds too loose.
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
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If I knew there would not be a re-raise behind me, I might play, but I don't, so I fold. It's close, but the hand looks better than it is. The more I look at it, the more I don't like playing this.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
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i would call.
you guys are forgetting the implied odds of something else holding a single ten who will give you a shitload of action.
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Humphrind
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
i would call.
you guys are forgetting the implied odds of something else holding a single ten who will give you a shitload of action.
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Those implied odds are based on a Jack coming out. If a 6 comes out it will chase everyone out except the T. I need more than 4 outs.
And I'm still looking for someone to hold the flush draw.
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I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
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Yeah, the game seems loose. If it's loose they're helping feed the rake everyhand. I'm not in any hurry if the table is like this. I will wait for a better place to get my money in.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
If I knew there would not be a re-raise behind me, I might play, but I don't, so I fold. It's close, but the hand looks better than it is. The more I look at it, the more I don't like playing this.
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Agreed. Isnt reverse implied odds at work here? 3 non-heart Jacks to the nuts. your three non-heart 6 outs are semi tainted (to JT, or a split pot). 3 T's are no good, and the 2 non-heart queens might be another half out each. doesn't seem like you have enough clean outs to be the first coldcaller of a passive player's raise.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
I will wait for a better place to get my money in.
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If you ever says this again about a limit game, or even most spots in a NL cash game, I will hunt you down and kick your ass.
That is sooo weak/tight even my inner weak/tight voice is crying out "wuss".
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Gatlin Dan
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04-02-2005, 02:59 PM
Post subject: Re: Live 4/8 game hand
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#9 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
My table image is weak/tight
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I'm not showing them anything different. I'd be calling two cold with players still to act behind me. I still fold.
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Fnord
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Pretty good discussion so far. Would love to say how this turned out, but there are a couple regulars I'd like to give a chance for others to chime in before tainting this with results oriented thinking.
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Fnord
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Throwing more fuel on the fire...
Board: 7h 8d 9h
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)
Hand 1: 19.7647 % [ 00.17 00.03 ] { QsTd }
Hand 2: 11.6432 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K2o, QJo-Q2o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 3: 11.1805 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K2o, QJo-Q2o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 54o }
Hand 4: 11.6474 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K2o, QJo-Q2o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 5: 11.6393 % [ 00.10 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K2o, QJo-Q2o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 6: 34.1249 % [ 00.32 00.02 ] { AA-77, A9s, K9s, Q9s, JTs-J9s, T9s, T6s, 98s-97s, 87s, 65s, A9o, K9o, Q9o, JTo-J9o, T9o, T6o, 98o-97o, 87o, 65o }
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Humphrind
Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
i would call.
you guys are forgetting the implied odds of something else holding a single ten who will give you a shitload of action.
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Those implied odds are based on a Jack coming out. If a 6 comes out it will chase everyone out except the T. I need more than 4 outs.
And I'm still looking for someone to hold the flush draw. |
3 outs to the nuts.
3 outs to split.
6 outs to top pair.
a loose passive raises, who is tilted. you're immediately getting 4:1. discounting the outs you have about 8-9 outs. how can you guys think about folding?
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
a loose passive raises, who is tilted. you're immediately getting 4:1. discounting the outs you have about 8-9 outs. how can you guys think about folding?
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Pot size and I wasn't sure, so I defaulted to a fold. I think I screwed up.
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Thinker
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 41
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I would fold for sure, but im very curious to know if the right play is to call ....
If there wasnt 2 suited cards i could call, but like that i just dont like it .
Anyway ... looking forward to read more stuff about this play.
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G_host
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 227
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Have to admit that I'm weak in this case. I woulda folded but then I haven't played any B&M maybe I would act different if I had.
The ten feels tainted for a top pair because of the str8 draw.Only three jacks feels safe and a Q pair with a 10 kicker? Neeeh...
Not to many cleans outs to be chasing but then maybe I seen to much loose .5/1 hands lately. 
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Fnord
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Moderator
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For what it's worth, I don't think considering a fold here is at all weak. A lot of spots call for considering a fold and quickly folding if you think it's close is a pretty good policy if only to minimize variance and/or hide the fact you're a thinking player. However, I do think "I'll wait for a better spot" kind of thinking outside of a tourney situation is poisonous if you intend to beat a game for the max.
If I offer you a deal where we both put up $1 and 55% of the time you get $2 would you reply with "I'll wait for a better spot."?
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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I'd probably call it down cheaply, but not only to hit the jack, but also loosen up the table image.
and by cheaply i mean no raises.
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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I'm think I'd letting this one go.
(but if I was actually there I'd probably freaking call)
Your hunting for 4 outs to high straight while dodging a heart. 3 outs for the nuts. Not to mention JT could already be out so your 6 just loses you more money.
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FyrFytr998
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Milford,Ct.
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Quote:
Mike4066 wrote but if I was actually there I'd probably freaking call)
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 You say that with some bitterness in your typing. 
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
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oops
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Fnord, what ever happen to you stance of "raise of fold pre-flop. Calling is HORRIBLE." You have promoted this advice (especially on similar type hands on the button) in many, many places on this forum.
You are unsuited and your semi-high holdings may hold value angainst the weaker limpers, but I think you need a raise here to take advantage of your position on the inferior players (that or fold). They think you are weak/tight, so a raise allows you represent a much higher holding, with position. You also eliminate 2 potential players (the blinds) because any flush or lower str8 draw is going to look scary with 6 players.
There are times to limp on the button, but I think if I anyone else posted this hand you would say.... raise or fold preflop.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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oops forgot..... on the post-flop raise from passive lady (who cares whether she is a woman???)........FOLD
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
Fnord, what ever happen to you stance of "raise of fold pre-flop. Calling is HORRIBLE." You have promoted this advice (especially on similar type hands on the button) in many, many places on this forum.
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In many spots this is true, particularly when facing a single limper. This is clearly not the case here.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
You are unsuited and your semi-high holdings may hold value angainst the weaker limpers, but I think you need a raise here to take advantage of your position on the inferior players (that or fold).
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If my opponents played well post-flop I should seriously consider folding given the rake. If I raised pre-flop I would not only likely be getting the worst of it (particularly because many of these players will limp dominating hands), the blinds would probably call anyway and I would be playing a shoot-out in a raised pot. By keeping the pot small I make post-flop play more important and can let reads feed more into decisions as I'm less likely to be pot-struck. Also, a smaller pot makes loose post-flop calls more likely to be incorrect and by a bigger margin. I think you should limp ATo, AJo and KJo in this spot as well (there is no need to buy the button since I already have it!)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
They think you are weak/tight, so a raise allows you represent a much higher holding, with position. You also eliminate 2 potential players (the blinds) because any flush or lower str8 draw is going to look scary with 6 players.
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They think I'm weak/tight and often put me on the correct hand but often call down anyway. It's warped but true. Hence, I'm more careful the picking spots where I exploit this.
I learned the hard way to be a little less aggro against players this bad. I use my table image to thin the herd a bit, then maximize the mistake they're making by calling down too much.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If my opponents played well post-flop I should seriously consider folding given the rake. If I raised pre-flop I would not only likely be getting the worst of it (particularly because many of these players will limp dominating hands), the blinds would probably call anyway and I would be playing a shoot-out in a raised pot. My keeping the pot small I make post-flop play more important and can let reads feed more into decisions as I'm less likely to be pot-struck. Also, a smaller pot makes loose post-flop calls more likely to be incorrect and by a bigger margin. I think you should limp ATo, AJo and KJo in this spot as well (there is no need to buy the button since I already have it!)
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An excellent point. Larger pot means your opponents are correctly calling to their draw. Smaller pot allows you to outplay them and incorrectly chase their draw.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Room
An excellent point. Larger pot means your opponents are correctly calling to their draw.
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Sometimes correct, quite often less incorrect. When considering when to raise any street you need to consider the edge you have, vs the potential for edges to come. Once we get multi-way offsuit unpaied hands other than AK/AQ don't have enough of an edge (or no edge or even getting the worst of it) to bother pushing unless the pre-flop raise will accomplish something else of value. This is easy to validate via PokerStove.
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
If I offer you a deal where we both put up $1 and 55% of the time you get $2 would you reply with "I'll wait for a better spot."?
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If there is in this case (two) other people who already have a vested interest in the "deal" and they can make me put up more than just that one dollar, sure I wait for a better spot.
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pokerfanatic
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To be very honest it think I probably would have called, you have immediate odds of so preflop there are 5sb flop you have a bettor and a raiser 8sb it coast you 2sb to call giving you an immediate 4:1 on your money but you have to hope a couple people behind you call and the original bettor calls (will probably call most likely no matter if some on calls behind or not so that's another sb) , giving you at least 4.5:1 (9:2 sb) on your money, if you get one caller behind you then your looking at more, so my immediate odds plus my implied odds justify a call here IMO, if you miss the turn the odds need recomputed, then go from there... If the raiser wasn’t a loose passive on tilt I do think I would have folded the flop however… if I had no reads on the player given they sat down and haven’t played many hands I’d default to odds… That might not be the right thing to do but I consider my odds if I’m considering a call or fold…
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
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"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
Fnord, what ever happen to you stance of "raise of fold pre-flop. Calling is HORRIBLE." You have promoted this advice (especially on similar type hands on the button) in many, many places on this forum.
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In many spots this is true, particularly when facing a single limper. This is clearly not the case here.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
You are unsuited and your semi-high holdings may hold value angainst the weaker limpers, but I think you need a raise here to take advantage of your position on the inferior players (that or fold).
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If my opponents played well post-flop I should seriously consider folding given the rake. If I raised pre-flop I would not only likely be getting the worst of it (particularly because many of these players will limp dominating hands), the blinds would probably call anyway and I would be playing a shoot-out in a raised pot. By keeping the pot small I make post-flop play more important and can let reads feed more into decisions as I'm less likely to be pot-struck. Also, a smaller pot makes loose post-flop calls more likely to be incorrect and by a bigger margin. I think you should limp ATo, AJo and KJo in this spot as well (there is no need to buy the button since I already have it!)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
They think you are weak/tight, so a raise allows you represent a much higher holding, with position. You also eliminate 2 potential players (the blinds) because any flush or lower str8 draw is going to look scary with 6 players.
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They think I'm weak/tight and often put me on the correct hand but often call down anyway. It's warped but true. Hence, I'm more careful the picking spots where I exploit this.
I learned the hard way to be a little less aggro against players this bad. I use my table image to thin the herd a bit, then maximize the mistake they're making by calling down too much. |
Thanks.. Good points and thoughtful explanation.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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Fnord
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Results:
I fold, BB check/3-bets, 2 calls, tilty caps, all call.
A clean Jack comes off on the turn. BB bets, all call.
River is a blank, BB bets, 2 calls. BB had a set of 9s, titly had KK.
Even the hands I was folding would have won, was that kind of session.
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G_host
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 227
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I learned the hard way to be a little less aggro against players this bad. I use my table image to thin the herd a bit, then maximize the mistake they're making by calling down too much.
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That's the lesson I'm learning right now And I think it's a hard one.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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Fnord,
I don't think you outright said, but what is your opinion on the call/fold here?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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I call this shit down. The likely hood that these morons are betting with their flush draws are slim to none. I highly doubt they are betting/raising with anything more than top pair.
Secondly, 4/8 is much too small a limit to be playing Live. Move up mang, geez.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Move up mang, geez.
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Wow...the gloves come off!
BTW--I'd fold this (1) fairly small pot (2) dirty outs which could cost you and (3) because these gamers love playing any two suited and will chase down.
The gutshot turn hurts, I'm sure, but I think it pays to be cautious in big pots with multi-idiots unless I have pretty good strength or a bunch of clean outs.
If they're THAT bad, you'll have other situations where you can get your money in with a bigger edge.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Move up mang, geez.
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Wow...the gloves come off!
BTW--I'd fold this (1) fairly small pot (2) dirty outs which could cost you and (3) because these gamers love playing any two suited and will chase down.
The gutshot turn hurts, I'm sure, but I think it pays to be cautious in big pots with multi-idiots unless I have pretty good strength or a bunch of clean outs.
If they're THAT bad, you'll have other situations where you can get your money in with a bigger edge. |
1) Its not that small of a pot. Its a raised pot and at this level nobody knows the difference between calling one bet or calling two. I've seen people call two cold at the 10/20 game with a pair of sevens here.
2) I dislike folding a hand because of what COULD happen at a later round. Its a lot more likely that someone doesnt have the flush than they do.
3) People like this are in teh same position you are and are getting odds to call down. They are more likely to miss their draw than hit it and you have folding equity when you miss on the river.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by chicago kid
If they're THAT bad, you'll have other situations where you can get your money in with a bigger edge.
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Take their money before they lose it to the rake or other players. LHE is a game of small edges and big pots. Take both when you get them.
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mike4066
Not to mention JT could already be out so your 6 just loses you more money.
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they call it the sucker straight for a reason.
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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Gatlin Dan
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wild Bill's Backyard
Posts: 504
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
.1)
Take their money before they lose it to the rake or other players. LHE is a game of small edges and big pots. Take both when you get them.
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Where is the edge here? I still don't see one.
Even if there are no other raises on the flop, you may have to call more than one again on the turn if it isn't checked around to tilty. Your potential for collecting extra bets if your straight does hit, is small due to your relative position on the raiser.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
Where is the edge here? I still don't see one.
Even if there are no other raises on the flop, you may have to call more than one again on the turn if it isn't checked around to tilty. Your potential for collecting extra bets if your straight does hit, is small due to your relative position on the raiser.
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or since they are tilted they will be willing to put more bets in.
"you raise me? screw you! the hell you outdrew me again. RERAISE! how you do like that now???"
Fnord caps.
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Grand_MasterB
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 466
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just curious as to if you found out if anyone was on a flush draw? i saw two callers that you didnt say their hands. just wondering if either of them was drawign to a flush and hit a pair or soemthing like that to call the river. I would have originally folded bc in a loose game like this seems your only outs were the 3 jacks not making a flush.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Just because there is a flush draw out there doesnt mean you should fold. I still see no reason to fold this hand on the flop for two small bets with a plethora of fish behind you.
Too weak/tight to fold to hands people MIGHT have when they've given no notice or hint that they have your outs.
What costs you more, folding a pot for 1 BB that could end up being 15 BB or the two BB it costs you to call it down (fold if you dont hit on the river)? Thats 7 scenarios that you just need to win once to be profitable. Considering you'll hit your straight 1/3 times, and the chances of you hitting your straight and your opponent hitting his flush are very slim, this is an easy call on the flop.
Now, on the turn if it was two bets back to you, you may consider folding unless the pot is out of control and if you hit you're pretty sure you'll win.
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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