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live 3/6 hand

  
 
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fooo
Old 03-10-2006, 10:41 PM     Post subject: live 3/6 hand #1 (permalink)  

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fooo
Hero dealt Ah Kh in the BB

UTG, UTG+1, MP, MP+1, BN, SB: call $3, 1 fold
Hero: raise to $6
all players call

Flop: Kd Js 9c
SB: check
Hero: bet $3
UTG, UTG+1, MP, MP+1, SB call, one fold

Turn: 8d
SB: check
Hero: bet $6
UTG, UTG+1, MP, SB call, one fold

UTG: "Dealer, put up a ten."
Hero: "Problem is that everyone else has a ten and wants your queen." (yeah, I should keep my mouth shut, still working on that)

River: 5h
SB: check
Hero: bet $6
Folded to SB: call

Anyone play this any differently?

1. OK, so it's bad to check from the BB, but could this be a counter-example where kicking up the size of the pot pre-flop makes those chasers' plays less of a mistake given that they have closer to appropriate pot odds to chase?
2. CR the flop instead, or is that just giving all these passive idiots a free shot at catching their straight?
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Xanadu
Old 03-10-2006, 11:02 PM #2 (permalink)  
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1. You were definitely correct to raise preflop. AK has way too much an edge to pass up on a raise.

2. Yes, check raising the flop or waiting for a turn cr is a good idea. there are already 14SB in the pot ... doesn't take much to call a bet ... a gut shot is correct to call 2 cold, so probably the only way to protect your hand is a turn cr. On the other side, since it is unlikely that noone will bet the flop ( and if someone bets the flop and everyone calls there will bet 21 SB in the pot), you might as well bet the flop for value. When the pot is very large, protecting your hand may be impossible and leaves you with value betting.
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 03-11-2006, 12:37 AM #3 (permalink)  
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the pot is too big to protect, even by delaying. bet every street for value.
 
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fooo
Old 03-11-2006, 12:52 PM     Post subject: sklansky, advanced hold'em #4 (permalink)  

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fooo
Chapter Four on playing loose games makes a point that it's often a good idea to pass on value early in a pot in order to "manipulate the pot size into one that is most likely to be a size where they make erors... Frequently keep it to a single bet before the flop more than most people think because you gain a lot when bad players make incorrect calls on the flop and beyond, as long as the pot is kept small."

He later says, "Suppose you know that a raise with two particular cards gains you $7 in expectation. It could still be wrong. The problem is that by putting extra money in early you may make your opponent's flop play accidentally correct or close to it. This might cost you more than the small amount gained preflop."

In this specific situation, I agree with the advice given by the posters here that I can't pass on the value, given AK and suited. Later on in this chapter, though, Sklansky says, "you often shouldn't raise with your AK or AQ in spots where you would raise in tougher, tighter games." This makes sense to me -- I mean, I might be more likely to raise here in the BB with 87s than, say, AQo since it plays well and easily multi-way.

Comments? Let's say that my AK hadn't been suited. On the one hand, if I hadn't raised pre-flop, then there'd be no respect for me holding a big hand if, say, I'd waited to CR the turn. On the other hand, with the pot size a little more controlled, I wonder if the J5o that beat me might have been a little bit more inclined to lay down earlier. I'm still working on being less results-oriented, but trying to think of how this hand could have played out differently. I'm interested here in comments on the idea of passing on value early to control the pot size.
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Xanadu
Old 03-11-2006, 07:56 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Passing on value preflop to control pot size and increase post flop expectation doesn't necessarily work. If you have a lot of opponents at the table who are not really aware of pot odds, and will continue with weak draws like gutshots and low pairs with far less odds than they need, then you are just losing value by not raising preflop. This is particularly true if your opponents are just as likely to call 2 bets on the turn as 1 bet with weak holdings. At some tables the only thing you can do is value bet. Even if a lot of these players' calls later in the hand are correct and +EV, your bets will have a greater EV. The fact that their later calls are correct does not earn them back the money they lost in earlier rounds.
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euphoricism
Old 03-12-2006, 01:37 AM #6 (permalink)  
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However we do have to note that this raise often makes the hand a good bit more difficult to play - particularly when we whiff.
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