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euphoricism
Old 01-04-2007, 04:56 PM     Post subject: Little Thin? #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is a 60/0 and is almost bust. Reraising with QJo is kinda thin, right? How do you like my play after that?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, Q.
UTG calls, Hero raises, 4 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 8, K, Q (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2.75 BB) 9 (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (4.75 BB) A (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 4.75 BB
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KoRnholio
Old 01-04-2007, 08:15 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Against a guy that loose and passive I think it's okay to try to isolate him. I bet the flop here.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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pokerfanatic
Old 01-04-2007, 11:35 PM #3 (permalink)  
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against a 60/0 your middle pair of Qs is bettor then a random hand (obviously it's not 100% random it the degree of 60% see poker stove stuff below) therefore betting the flop is +EV... on the turn your edge increases some to 66.228% favorite...

Code:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

 593,010  games     0.032 secs    18,531,562  games/sec

Board: 8d Kh Qh
Dead:  

	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
Hand 0: 	65.980%  	64.56% 	01.42% 	        382862 	     8406.50   { QcJs }
Hand 1: 	34.020%  	32.60% 	01.42% 	        193335 	     8406.50   { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K3o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }


1,220,872,752  games     0.031 secs    39,382,992,000  games/sec

Board: 
Dead:  

	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
Hand 0: 	51.670%  	50.14% 	01.53% 	     612084810 	 18737023.00   { QcJs }
Hand 1: 	48.330%  	46.80% 	01.53% 	     571313896 	 18737023.00   { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K3o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
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bigspenda73
Old 01-04-2007, 11:42 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 PF you are barely barely barely ahead of his range. Something like 51:49. However, if he is truly bad the iso raising him and picking up the blinds truly exaggerates your edge.
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pokerfanatic
Old 01-06-2007, 01:46 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
PF you are barely barely barely ahead of his range. Something like 51:49. However, if he is truly bad the iso raising him and picking up the blinds truly exaggerates your edge.
ihave both the PF and flop numbers in my code preflop is the lower set...
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euphoricism
Old 01-06-2007, 03:57 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I dont like a flop bet here.
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pokerfanatic
Old 01-07-2007, 02:04 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
I dont like a flop bet here.
Why not? This is not no limit where you sit back and wait for a 98% (over exaggeration a bit here) favorite its limit... 51% favorite is a bet...

If you had QQ v AK and you know this, both hands were face up… you still raise preflop right? That’s an even smaller edge then what you're looking at based on his range on the flop...

It’s sort of like having AT v KQ (60/40) both your hands are turned face up preflop do you raise the AT still? My guess would be yes...

I think you get my point now... you’re a 66% favorite to his range here not beating is idiotic… as I have proven with other examples that you would totally agree you make a bet or raise with even knowing there hands…
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elipsesjeff
Old 01-07-2007, 02:30 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 A loose passive I like a bet here and check the turn. Smaller bets on flop allow for better continuation bets. Also, by not betting, you give up a lot of information.


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bigspenda73
Old 01-07-2007, 12:57 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K3o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o
What part of this range calls a flop bet? Then, what part of this range do we have beat on the turn? Guessing we get a fold on the flop from a lot of hands in these categories.
22-77, J2s+, T3s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s+.

We have to assign him a new range for calling the flop. When fanatic says your edge increases to something like 66% on the turn I think that is faulty logic. Do you only say this because the flop was not bet? Had we bet the flop here (and been called) our edge would most certainly not be that large on the turn.
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pokerfanatic
Old 01-07-2007, 03:38 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K3o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o
What part of this range calls a flop bet? Then, what part of this range do we have beat on the turn? Guessing we get a fold on the flop from a lot of hands in these categories.
22-77, J2s+, T3s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s+.

We have to assign him a new range for calling the flop. When fanatic says your edge increases to something like 66% on the turn I think that is faulty logic. Do you only say this because the flop was not bet? Had we bet the flop here (and been called) our edge would most certainly not be that large on the turn.
well you are assuming he will fold hands that are obviously beat, but this is a player that is playing 60% of his hands anyways and will probably take many of these hands way to far given he probably should have folded them to began with, you are putting rational thought process to a player that doesn't have a thought process...

plus i forgot to mention you are expected to bet the flop anyways given you raised pre flop, so jeff made the point by not beating after raising pre flop to anyone watching (probably not the guy in the hand given he's an idiot) information that you will raise preflop and if you don't hit a solid hand check... Jeff doesn't really mean you are giving info to the guy in the pot he might even notice that you did it and wonder what you are doing... but he probably won’t understand the reason behind it...

i never said the turn man, you put those words in my mouth i said the flop, i said nothing about the turn play... if he does call you're probably right the hand range needs adjustment but your thinking that he will fold 22-77 is flat wrong i think, a lot of these 60/0 take pocket pairs all the way down... if he has anything in hearts he'll take it to the river as well... plus my numbers are based upon him playing the top 60% of hands which might or might not be the case... honestly i also think if he has any drawing hand like a GSD he'll call the flop and turn... so i think that you are making the mistake of assuming this guy folds hands he should fold... he's range is still pretty damn wide IMO even when he calls the flop bet...

here is the range i think he might have if calls the flop bet...
9.T.Jx (all give back door draw (yes a 60/0 will think it's a draw))(this might be a little thin for even a 60% but still it's possible)
J2s+, T3s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s+ (in hearts)
any pocket pair (I don't know his TAF but I’m assuming it's small or 0 in this case)
(starts to run the numbers) (flop numbers with adjusted hand range)

Code:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  10,780  games     0.005 secs     2,156,000  games/sec

Board: 8d Kh Qh 9s
Dead:  

	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
Hand 0: 	61.707%  	59.84% 	01.86% 	          6451 	      201.00   { QcJs }
Hand 1: 	38.293%  	36.43% 	01.86% 	          3927 	      201.00   { 22+, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ad7d, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, Kh9h, Kh8h, Kh7h, Kh6h, Kh5h, Kh4h, Kh3h, Kh2h, QhJh, QhTh, Qh9h, Qh8h, Qh7h, Qh6h, Qh5h, Qh4h, Qh3h, Qh2h, JhTh, Jh9h, Jh8h, Jh7h, Jh6h, Jh5h, Jh4h, Jh3h, Jh2h, Th9h, Th8h, Th7h, Th6h, Th5h, Th4h, Th3h, 9h8h, 9h7h, 9h6h, 9h5h, 9h4h, 8h7h, 8h6h, 8h5h, 7h6h, 7h5h, 6h5h, 6h4h, 5h4h, A9o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J8o+, T8o+, 97o+ }


---

 317,790  games     0.016 secs    19,861,875  games/sec

Board: 8d Kh Qh
Dead:  

	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
Hand 0: 	65.692%  	64.34% 	01.35% 	        204479 	     4283.00   { QcJs }
Hand 1: 	34.308%  	32.96% 	01.35% 	        104745 	     4283.00   { 22+, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah6h, Ah5h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, Kh9h, Kh8h, Kh7h, Kh6h, Kh5h, Kh4h, Kh3h, Kh2h, QhJh, QhTh, Qh9h, Qh8h, Qh7h, Qh6h, Qh5h, Qh4h, Qh3h, Qh2h, JhTh, Jh9h, Jh8h, Jh7h, Jh6h, Jh5h, Jh4h, Jh3h, Jh2h, Th9h, Th8h, Th7h, Th6h, Th5h, Th4h, Th3h, 9h8h, 9h7h, 9h6h, 9h5h, 9h4h, 8h7h, 8h6h, 8h5h, 7h6h, 7h5h, 6h5h, 6h4h, 5h4h, A8o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T7o+, 95o+ }
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bigspenda73
Old 01-07-2007, 06:35 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
on the turn your edge increases some to 66.228% favorite...
I would never put words in your mouth.
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pokerfanatic
Old 01-08-2007, 03:01 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
on the turn your edge increases some to 66.228% favorite...
I would never put words in your mouth.
hehe okwell i mean on the flop you have apx 66% fav before the call...
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