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A little line I use quite a bit...

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Fnord

09-23-2005, 04:35 AM Post subject: A little line I use quite a bit...

#1 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

UTG is TAgg 19/11
Button is pretty terrible, tends to see a lot of rivers and fold and run call/fold lines on the flop/turn. Actually a lot of B&M guys play like this too.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 8

, 8

.
2 folds, UTG+2 raises, 4 folds, Button calls, Fnord calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 7

, 7

, 4

(3 players)
Fnord checks, UTG+2 bets, Button calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5

(3 players)
Fnord checks, UTG+2 bets, Button calls, Fnord raises...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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elipsesjeff

09-23-2005, 05:19 AM

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elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

You are either way ahead or way behind, its almost too common and even blind defenders are running this line lately.

I usually check/raise the flop because if I am behind I dont feel like getting three bet on a more expensive streak and then still having to go to showdown. Even funnier, you'll get three bet by AKo then they wiill fold to your auto bet on the turn.

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Fnord

09-23-2005, 05:36 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I usually check/raise the flop because if I am behind I dont feel like getting three bet on a more expensive streak and then still having to go to showdown. Even funnier, you'll get three bet by AKo then they wiill fold to your auto bet on the turn.

...which is exactly why I ran this line. If TAgg 3-bets here, I don't think I can take this to showdown unimproved. I also could dump to a bad turn card. However, if I make my move on the flop, they're going to peel and AK/AQ is more inclined to get frisky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

09-23-2005, 06:11 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Consider that if I make my move on the flop, I'm saying to TAgg "is my hand any good?" I'm also building a pot allowing TAgg to run raise for a cheap card/showdown lines or even correctly call with big cards.

By raising on the turn with donk in the pot I'm saying "bring it on AA and donk can come along for the ride." This puts TAgg in a position to incorrectly give up on big cards or even laydown a pair. Furtheremore, it's a pure value play against the donk. It's a big pot and I'd rather a hand like AK/AQ/KQ not see the river.

A ran a similar line last month in a 4/8 game with AJ TPTK. Got my money in with the best hand, but JT caught a gutshot on the river. However, my line froze him so much he only called my river bet.

From memory it went something like this:

2 Donks limp.
Aggro Donk raises from the button.
I call with AJo from the SB, all call.

Flop is J88
I check, BB checks, EP donks, fold, button raises, I cold-donk, BB folds, EP calls.

Turn is 7
I check, EP checks, button bets, I raise, EP folds, button calls.

Turn is a 9
I bet, button calls and JTo takes it down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

09-23-2005, 08:10 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Back to the first hand, you have to look at the risks/benefits too before deciding this action.

What are the risks you encounter and what are the benefits? Not trying to sound facicious, but it might help garner discussion from others in this forum.

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Shark Bait

09-23-2005, 09:17 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Sometimes the turn isn't another low card that gives you an inside straight draw.

do people actually bet/fold on the turn? I think this person is seeing the river with this play. The only way they might not is if you raise the flop and bet the turn.

I see the reasoning, but how often will 88 hold up against 2 opponents? I think you'd have a better chance if you bet the flop and hope UTG+2 raises and get the button out of the hand. Then you're probably good often enough, even if an over card comes.

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euphoricism

09-23-2005, 01:42 PM

#7 (permalink)

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I run this same play often.

UTG is unlikely to have hit that board other than with an overpair, say TT-AA. The preflop raise says there is absolutely no chance of there being a seven in his hand. Throw in that you're in the small blind and can really have any two, and id put you on the seven every time.

Now you have folding equity because you've represented a big hand (check call flop, check raise turn is usually a sign of strength) and there is a pretty good chance that this is AQ-AK. The 11% PFR is a bit high, could even be as low as KQ, or maybe even KJs

Against a weak player I think you'll get a fold here more than enough to be profitable. If he calls the turn, its an auto bet on the flop. YHIG.

Note: I do NOT like this three handed. Heads up is one thing, but into two opponents, its a good bit more risky. The trapped guy isnt likely folding for one bet. He's going, "oh fuck, im stuck"

Fnord

09-23-2005, 07:43 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Note: I do NOT like this three handed. Heads up is one thing, but into two opponents, its a good bit more risky. The trapped guy isnt likely folding for one bet. He's going, "oh fuck, im stuck"

I really like my hand against the Button's range here and with him in the hand TAgg knows I can't be bluffing. I think TAgg gives up on over-cards here a lot and might even out-think himself with a big pair (even 10% chance of folding out a better hand is huge.)

Consider:
o I make it difficult to re-raise me with a stronger hand because I'm repping a straight, boat or trips.
o Quite often I take away the river card from big cards (6 outs)
o Once in a while TAgg finds a big laydown here (my guess is ~10%.)
o It s a pure value play against the horrible player who often has something like J4, QT, 66 or A3 here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Against a weak player I think you'll get a fold here more than enough to be profitable. If he calls the turn, its an auto bet on the flop. YHIG.

I think TAgg will call down with better hands quite often. Only TAniac would 3-bet a big pair here and they're a rare breed at 2/4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jmontis

09-23-2005, 09:56 PM

#9 (permalink)

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the good thing about this is, it's kind of "counter-playing" the TAG style, which is why passive players get so many bets out of aggro players...

people seem to think if you aren't TAG that you can't win; that's wrong. If you're predictable, thinking players can beat you. Unpredictable players are the ones who rake in the dough.

I like it

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

Fnord

09-23-2005, 10:07 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jmontis

people seem to think if you aren't TAG that you can't win; that's wrong. If you're predictable, thinking players can beat you. Unpredictable players are the ones who rake in the dough.

I disagree and think you're giving "unpredicable" too much value. However, I do think there is merit balancing plays such that it's hard to put you on a narrow range of holdings.

The next step above TAgg is opening it up some, thinking each hand through and being willing to gamble it up a little. Each hand is a puzzle and you focus more on what they have and what they think you have (or if they even care.)

BTW, for the results oriented:

Everyone folded and I take it down without showing down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jmontis

09-23-2005, 11:39 PM

#11 (permalink)

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your position in this hand is what makes it good. 88 has double the value, it might be the best hand already, or you might flop a set..

I don't overvalue deception at all, but this play allows the TAG to make a few more mistakes if you are ahead, before he figures out "my A-x is no good"

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

Xanadu

09-24-2005, 11:06 PM

#12 (permalink)

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I think the question here is 'do I best protect my hand on the flop or on the turn?' I like the flop call and turn check-raise for 2 reasons:

1. The flop check-raise does not protect your hand ... since everyone has already called a bet, they will certainly call your raise getting better odds. The flop bet also does not do well protecting your hand as each player will have at least 7-1 to call.
2. The 88 overpair is very vulnerable and will be a much more robust hand if a blank falls on the turn ... if so, the chances of overcards drawing out on you is half what it was on the flop. As SSH says, sometimes you give up a slight edge on the flop for a much bigger edge on the turn.

euphoricism

09-25-2005, 12:25 AM

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I often see this as button has the 7, and wants you to overcall the turn. Seem to happen to me quite often. Id say you're way ahead of the tag, but I'd be warry of a call from the button.

09-25-2005, 06:14 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Is donk a verb?

Fnord

09-25-2005, 10:33 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Is donk a verb?

Is asshat a verb?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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Trikflow77

09-25-2005, 12:00 PM

#16 (permalink)

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DONKEYS DRAW

09-25-2005, 11:13 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Is donk a verb?

Is asshat a verb?

Oh god, I hope not

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