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dsaxton
Old 02-15-2006, 12:08 AM     Post subject: Line with T-T. #1 (permalink)  
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Not much of a read. Thoughts? Should I 3-bet flop, or is this line good?

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with T, T.
2 folds, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, CO calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6, 2, 9 (3 players)
SB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB raises, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) Q (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB
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midas06
Old 02-15-2006, 12:36 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I like.
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Nehmer
Old 02-15-2006, 12:45 AM #3 (permalink)  
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I 3-bet this flop every time. I'm not a big fan of trying to get tricky with a hand as vulnerable as TT. There are a lot of scare cards that can come and there is always the possibility that villain is raising with overs to try and buy a cheap river. Plus I think 3-betting the flop just makes the turn decisions a lot easier to make.
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jmontis
Old 02-15-2006, 03:08 AM #4 (permalink)  
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looks good until the turn, I don't think I raise here, maybe that's weak of me?
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
 
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dsaxton
Old 02-15-2006, 03:29 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmontis
looks good until the turn, I don't think I raise here, maybe that's weak of me?
How come? If my hand was good on the flop, it's almost always still good on the turn. The queen is basically a blank.
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-15-2006, 04:26 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmontis
looks good until the turn, I don't think I raise here, maybe that's weak of me?
How come? If my hand was good on the flop, it's almost always still good on the turn. The queen is basically a blank.
If you think your hand is that good then wait until the river to raise as folding to a 3 bet then is more doable. Also, he is less likely to 3 bet without the nuts and you dont want him to fold his A9 or other marginal holding on the turn to one bet.


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dsaxton
Old 02-15-2006, 05:40 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmontis
looks good until the turn, I don't think I raise here, maybe that's weak of me?
How come? If my hand was good on the flop, it's almost always still good on the turn. The queen is basically a blank.
If you think your hand is that good then wait until the river to raise as folding to a 3 bet then is more doable. Also, he is less likely to 3 bet without the nuts and you dont want him to fold his A9 or other marginal holding on the turn to one bet.
I think he might check a lot of marginal holdings on the river. Do you think this line of waiting for the river to raise might be losing too much when I'm behind? I think an argument could be made that it's likelier I'm behind if he bets into me on both the turn and river as opposed to the moment when he just bets the turn (but I'm not sure by how much, this is obviously player-dependent, but it is probably a significant amount against a passive player, which describes most $3/$6 players).
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stingo0
Old 02-15-2006, 09:22 AM #8 (permalink)  

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3 bet the flop! call turn and on the river his 2 pair is counterfeited done...
turn raise is bad... you have 3 options.
1. you are ahead and he drops even his top pair
2. you are behind you got 3 bet
3. you will lose on ther river
TT is not a strong hand to attack hard on expensive streets especially if he has shown strength.
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Demiparadigm
Old 02-15-2006, 09:29 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Haha.

I play it the same.

3 betting the flop is not a bad option against a player who will go to the river with anything. Against most 3/6 players, this line will win the most ahead and lose the least behind.

Dsaxton plays g00t.

('cept against me, when he is weak tight )
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koolmoe
Old 02-15-2006, 04:36 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Ugh. I hate this line.

Calling the flop raise when the SB might have 9x, 77, or 88 sucks, because when you are ahead of those hands, they can almost always pitch it to your turn raise. They'll be more inclined to call down when you 3-bet the flop. Also, there are lots of scary turn cards that will make your TT look weak. I'd be more inclined to make this play (and often do) with AA or KK.

Raising the turn and folding to a three bet sucks because you can get a free card and a showdown for the same price, and you run the risk of folding a better hand to an aggressive player holding something like A9 who thinks you are bluffing. I don't really see any hand you beat willing to call down after you raise the turn. Finally, I really like to try to get to a showdown with mid pairs when the board is relatively benign like this one.
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dsaxton
Old 02-15-2006, 05:47 PM #11 (permalink)  
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A few people have said "you shouldn't raise the turn because this allows him to fold marginal hands, you should raise the flop instead." Isn't this exactly what raising the flop does? Allows him to get away from a marginal hand, except more cheaply than when I wait for the turn to raise?

Yes, he will probably fold on the turn, but so what? I win the pot if he does. If I 3-bet the flop, then bet the turn, the exact same argument implies. "A better hand never calls." Is the suggestion that, in general, I should not bet or raise with the likely best hand on the turn just because a queen is higher than a ten?
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euphoricism
Old 02-15-2006, 07:47 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
A few people have said "you shouldn't raise the turn because this allows him to fold marginal hands, you should raise the flop instead." Isn't this exactly what raising the flop does? Allows him to get away from a marginal hand, except more cheaply than when I wait for the turn to raise?

Yes, he will probably fold on the turn, but so what? I win the pot if he does. If I 3-bet the flop, then bet the turn, the exact same argument implies. "A better hand never calls." Is the suggestion that, in general, I should not bet or raise with the likely best hand on the turn just because a queen is higher than a ten?
FWIW I think you played this fine. The difference between threebetting the flop and raising the turn is minor at most.

A) The turn often/sometimes improves his hand. Getting your money in with the best hand = goot.
B) Psychologically, people are less likely to bet/fold than check/fold. He's more likely to call down with A9 here than to call a turn raise with it.
C) Its not about winning pots, its about winning money.

And finally, something a lot of us are now finally coming to realize...

D) You should raise only if you're going to get called, and still have the best hand at showdown, otherwise, it accomplishes nothing. Generally speaking, If you think you have the best hand now, but might not by showdown, you should raise now in an attempt to take the pot before you lose it. If youre raising and not getting called when you really want to be called - youre losing money. A lot of us have made the switch to raising on the river with big hands more than on the turn because of this.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with K, K.
2 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) J, K, K (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

(probably should have just donked that river, but there was no reason for him to think he was beat.)
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dsaxton
Old 02-15-2006, 08:22 PM #13 (permalink)  
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"D) You should raise only if you're going to get called, and still have the best hand at showdown, otherwise, it accomplishes nothing."

I don't think this is accurate. Raising also serves to protect the pot when an opponent has outs to beat you. If he flopped any pair, he has outs to beat me.

The idea here is that he will never raise when I'm ahead, but he might call, and raising the turn costs the same number of bets as calling the turn and river, which seems to be the most profitable alternative. However, if I simply call his turn bet, he may check the river, and I'm now put in a dubious position where I may potentially miss a bet against a second-best hand which he would've been willing to call a turn raise (in the first situation) or river bet (in the second situation) with. For that reason, I prefer raising the turn. Another thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that he might fold J-J to a turn raise.

Overall, the difference between raising the turn and calling down is probably minimal.
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koolmoe
Old 02-15-2006, 08:31 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
A few people have said "you shouldn't raise the turn because this allows him to fold marginal hands, you should raise the flop instead." Isn't this exactly what raising the flop does? Allows him to get away from a marginal hand, except more cheaply than when I wait for the turn to raise?
You can three bet the flop as a free (cheap) card play. You can't do that on the turn. That is one of the reasons why you will get called down more often than when you come alive on the turn.

Also, many 6-max players will raise a strong draw on the turn (notice that the turn brought a second spade), and aggressive players will try to punish this type of play by three betting more liberally. You have to be about 90% sure that he doesn't have a hand like A9 or 88 to fold that turn.

Quote:
Is the suggestion that, in general, I should not bet or raise with the likely best hand on the turn just because a queen is higher than a ten?
No, I just want to show down the hand, especially if it's the same price as raise/fold.
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dsaxton
Old 02-15-2006, 08:47 PM #15 (permalink)  
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This is $3/$6. Most players are passive donkeys who aren't even aware of these types of plays. I'm not sure they'd be making that adjustment even if they were.
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euphoricism
Old 02-15-2006, 09:16 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
"D) You should raise only if you're going to get called, and still have the best hand at showdown, otherwise, it accomplishes nothing."

I don't think this is accurate. Raising also serves to protect the pot when an opponent has outs to beat you. If he flopped any pair, he has outs to beat me.
That fits the statement perfectly. If your opponent has outs, you want him to call your raise without odds, particularly if he's drawing to <8 outs with <5:1. You don't want him to fold. Why raise?

I'm not saying raise only with the nuts - but, "selective passivity".

If youre trying to protect your hand multi-way, I can see what you mean. That does not fit into the HU context I was implying.
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Fnord
Old 02-15-2006, 09:16 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
This is $3/$6. Most players are passive donkeys who aren't even aware of these types of plays. I'm not sure they'd be making that adjustment even if they were.
In my experience, the donkeys know at some level that they need to kick up the aggression, play more hands and see more showdowns. However, the exploitable tendency is to do this way too much. Hence, the strategy I like is playing reasonably tight, value-betting the piss out of them and showing down good hands. This is a good hand, I want to run a line that punishes an over-played hand that hit the board once and gets me to showdown.

That being said I don't have a very good track record in these games (small sample size, clashes poorly with my natural style, etc.)
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koolmoe
Old 02-15-2006, 10:43 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
This is $3/$6. Most players are passive donkeys who aren't even aware of these types of plays. I'm not sure they'd be making that adjustment even if they were.
Yeah, no one would ever raise fold a turn at 3/6.

Just remember that the more you raise, the more you are committing to a showdown.
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dsaxton
Old 02-16-2006, 12:11 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
"D) You should raise only if you're going to get called, and still have the best hand at showdown, otherwise, it accomplishes nothing."

I don't think this is accurate. Raising also serves to protect the pot when an opponent has outs to beat you. If he flopped any pair, he has outs to beat me.
That fits the statement perfectly. If your opponent has outs, you want him to call your raise without odds, particularly if he's drawing to <8 outs with <5:1. You don't want him to fold. Why raise?

I'm not saying raise only with the nuts - but, "selective passivity".

If youre trying to protect your hand multi-way, I can see what you mean. That does not fit into the HU context I was implying.
If I want him to call with poor odds why not raise? He can't possibly do so unless I raise.
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euphoricism
Old 02-16-2006, 12:38 AM #20 (permalink)  
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I was obviously taking the view that we were in position, and he led into us. My phrasing sucks. Restate my last post as, "That fits the statement perfectly. If your opponent [is betting into you and has outs] you want him to [continue to bet without odds] particularly if he's drawing to <8 outs with <5:1. You don't want him to fold. Why raise?

I'll narrow this down and eventually get it right, promise.

We (often/somtimes/when the big hands on top of the little hand/when its 'that time of the month'/etc.) shouldn't raise just because we have the best hand. By doing so, we often give a lesser hand a chance to stumble blindly into the correct play - and when our opponents make the correct play, we lose.

I keep hearing fnord's words in the back of my head, "perfect play doesn't win the game for the max, exploitation does."
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