www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

Limping more, making more money

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

Fnord

03-06-2005, 06:14 AM Post subject: Limping more, making more money

#1 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I've started limping KQo and AJo UTGish at most tables when I'm against a loose field that serial cold-calls.

o I'm out of position
o If I raise pre-flop I pretty much have to bet the flop when I miss or bet/call to try to catch on the turn. This gets expensive out of position.
o Some of the semi-bad players will get chased out of the pot, I like their money too.
o Even if I isolate a really really bad player (he cold calls, blind fold), being out of position makes it difficult to win with my hand unimproved.
o Neither one really has the unimproved win power of AK/AQ.
o Building a big pot gives them odds to draw out on me.
o Most of my opponents love to make HORRIBLE calls and bluff raise. This allows me to play more fit or fold and take advantage of their mistakes.
o I'm out of position

Over my last few days I'm now making more money on both hands. Still early to make a correlation though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

elipsesjeff

03-06-2005, 06:20 AM

#2 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

What about tight tables?

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

Fnord

03-06-2005, 06:24 AM

#3 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

If you have a good chance of taking down or isolating the blinds and/or picking up the pot on a flop bet FIRE AWAY!

I'm playing 99/88/77/AJ/KQ pretty much the same way UTG.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

03-06-2005, 06:31 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

Fnord, Limping pre-flop is under-rated .....lol

See my pre-flop aggression factor of .46

PS. I can't believe that Jeff hasn't hammered me about that yet. He's either mellowing out or too busy making $$$

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

03-06-2005, 07:02 AM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Umm... I'm still at around a 9% PFR. I tend to get creative in late position...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

03-06-2005, 07:08 AM

#6 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

See my pre-flop aggression factor of .46

PS. I can't believe that Jeff hasn't hammered me about that yet. He's either mellowing out or too busy making $$$

Huh? I guess i'm mellowing out. Also, I dont know the preflop agg factor to PFR computation.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

Trikflow77

03-06-2005, 07:14 AM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: im so asian

Posts: 1,460

I have always limped 77/88/99 from early ep, KQ I muck at most tables, Aj I limp. I think this is the reason I could never get my PRF above 10%

Fnord

03-06-2005, 07:21 AM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

I have always limped 77/88/99 from early ep, KQ I muck at most tables, Aj I limp. I think this is the reason I could never get my PRF above 10%

You should raise 99/88 at all but the most loosie goose tables. They play well in a raised pot and you really don't mind picking up or isolating the blinds with them. They're also eaiser to play out of position when you miss as often you will be put on big cards. Also, I like raising hands like that for balance so the other PlayerView armed players can't just fold out of my way when I raise UTG. Mucking KQ from EP is really tight. At tough tables I raise it for balance. I also love betting KQo into Axx boards after raising pre-flop. At loose tables it's worth at least a limp because they'll chase all kinds of crap in an unraised pot vs your big pair when you hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

03-06-2005, 07:31 AM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: im so asian

Posts: 1,460

my stats show kq a slight loser from early ep, so now i muck it the majority of the time. 77/88 I limp most of the time. 99 is situational, but at a tight table I raise it. At a really loose table, I dont see raising 77/88 as being that good of a play, I like to use my position to trap for extra bets when I flop a set. I have found I make more money that way execpt at tight tables. I want good players to muck aj kq to my raise, at a loose table, it aint happening.

Fnord

03-06-2005, 07:43 AM

#10 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

My sample size is too small to comment.

PokerRoom says that for a typical player it's +EV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

03-06-2005, 10:03 AM

#11 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

I routinely raise AJo preflop UTG - but that is my borderline hand, anything below I fold. It's made me money doing this.

I also routinely fold KQo preflop UTG.

Fnord

03-06-2005, 10:26 AM

#12 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

I also routinely fold KQo preflop UTG.

Stop that. At the level you're playing at it shouldn't even be close. Make a big pair in an unraised pot and watch them make all sorts of horrible calls. Sounds like profit to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ihategnomes

03-06-2005, 03:03 PM

#13 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: Louisiana

Posts: 1,225

Limping UTG loose tables:

AJo, KQo, ATs-A7s, 77, 88, suited paint cards not AKs-AJs

Limping Tight Tables:

AJo, KQo, ATs-A9s, 88, ?

This is the way I have been playing. At a tight table, what should I do with my suited paint cards? Other than that does this seem about right?

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude

RiverMonkey

03-06-2005, 11:02 PM

#14 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

pg 96 SSH: "In small stakes hold'em, the real money is won and lost AFTER the flop"

In loose games, where you are a post-flop favourite (i.e. you have an edge because you can outplay your opponents post-flop) I definitely agree that should be playing a few more hands from EP. Just a few.

I can't figure out why people would even consider mucking KQo from early position in a loose (somewhat passive) game where you have an overall edge due to your post-flop skills. Maybe I'm being naive, but ......

Combine your post-flop skill advantage with the fact that your opponents' starting hand requirements are, by the very defintion of 'loose game', weaker and lower than yours; this makes playing a few more marginal hands up-front EV +ve. My argument would be that if you have, for example, 3 or 4 people coming in with even worse hands than you, their combined pre-flop mistakes combined with their combined post-flop mistakes, under-writes any pre-flop "EV negativity" you are taking on by playing a few more hands. Of course this is going to put you in the position of being dominated every now and then, but that's the trade off you're making.

For any given game you're in, you have to consider how much pre-flop raising is going on, as well as your opponents' hand selection. You have to be willing to tune your pre-flop hand selection standards based on these factors. Every time I sit down at a table I have baseline starting hand requirements that I follow, and then, as I collect more info about the way my opponents' play, I tune it from there by either tightening or loosening up. Also, I'm following SSH's recomendation to start off on the loose side and tighten up as required rather than the other way around.

Side Note
-----------
My least profitable games seem to be the ones where the majority of the table have relatively strict starting hand requirements and they all religiously follow the mantra to "fit or fold" on the flop. The pots are tiny, and its hard to get paid off

Does anyone have any advice (other than the obvious "move tables you stupid monkey!") re: strategies for gaining an edge in these games, and as well as how you might go about loosening it up?

I find that 'straddling' does wonders to loosen up a table. I never straddle, but when others do it, I've notice that it really fosters more action in future hands beyond that one. Also, I find that pre-flop raising in late position even if you don't have a hand that warrants it tends to loosen up a table, so I'll use that tactic every now and then too.

Any other ideas?

Fnord

03-07-2005, 12:29 AM

#15 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Against the "fit or fold" crowd you need to steal. Steal blinds, defend blinds, steal small pots with unloved flops, etc. Just becareful because the table idiot defends himself perfectly from these tactics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

03-07-2005, 12:37 AM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: im so asian

Posts: 1,460

River money, in the games you are talking about, you need to open raise more pots, steal more blinds, and bow out early to aggression.

I am just going by what my stats show. I multi-table and I think that kq is just added variance out of position. Yes it is slightly +EV, but I am willing to sacrifice this, I really do not think this hand is profitable enough from early position to mess with it. I pay off a passive ak too many times to really show a significant profit.

RiverMonkey

03-07-2005, 01:12 AM

#17 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

I am just going by what my stats show. I multi-table and I think that kq is just added variance out of position. Yes it is slightly +EV

I can't argue with that ... I'm just saying that if you are in a game-situation where you think you have and edge over your opponents that I described then you should choose to play KQo from EP ... it's an edge so you should try and use it.

If you are in a game where that play would be much more marginal, then don't do it.

I just think if you're willing to adapt and mix it up more, you might be able to drive that small EV your showing up a bit and exploit an edge.

Incidentally, I think this is especially true in B&Ms and even more true on weekend nights there; that edge is very prevelant if those games.

When you are mulit-tabling online, or when you are up against tighter opponents then you have conditions that are less favourable to KQo in EP.

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:45 AM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

All Other (Limit) Poker

Limping more, making more money

Play for FREE and practice your game at...