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rubixstreub
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12-17-2005, 07:21 PM
Post subject: Limpers Needed
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 887
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So, I've been following this SSH starting hand guide a little too literally.
I'm wondering how many limpers you like to see ahead of you before you play your drawing hands (I'm calling drawing hands PP 66 or lower, Axs/Kxs and suited connectors/gapers T9 or lower- you can correct my thinking here, but at my stakes, .5-1 I don't feel comfortable playing these hands very strong preflop).
According to the SSH Guide, at loose Party tables most of those hands are easy calls from middle/late position, but a lot of times I'm most likely 1st or 2nd in with these hands, the SB folds, and it's just 2-3 of us seeing the flop.
Should I not be playing drawing hands if I'm 1st or 2nd in from MP2/3 or LP? I know you shouldn't open limp, so I guess I should be folding these hands?
This is a very elementary question but: Are we adding drawing hands as our position improves because more people are likely to have entered the pot, or because it's less likely to be raised and we'll have position for the rest of the hand? It seems like the first part of my question is really the most important part, at least in terms of profit with speculative hands, but then it would seem there should be a minimum amount of players in the hand before we decide calling with Q9s from MP or 54s 2nd in on the button is a good idea
It seems like I should almost be thinking of my starting hands if that hand feels loose or tight, not really just the table overall.
sorry for the long post and thanks for reading if you got this far 
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KoRnholio
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12-17-2005, 07:30 PM
Post subject: Re: Limpers Needed
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#2 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by rubixstreub
According to the SSH Guide, at loose Party tables most of those hands are easy calls from middle/late position, but a lot of times I'm most likely 1st or 2nd in with these hands, the SB folds, and it's just 2-3 of us seeing the flop.
Should I not be playing drawing hands if I'm 1st or 2nd in from MP2/3 or LP? I know you shouldn't open limp, so I guess I should be folding these hands? |
I base this decision a lot on how often I think my limp in MP will draw more loose passives to limp behind me (and not raise). Although at most tables if there's one EP limper and it's folded to me in middle-late position I will dump it unless it has some high card value (eg QTs or JTo I will play vs 87s I won't).
Hands like Axs/Kxs/low suited connectors I want to be very sure there will be enough people seeing the flop to make it worth my while, if it looks like it could only be 3 or 4 way to the flop (including the blinds), I often dump them.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Its not too bad you're following SSH by the letter right now. Use the Tight Chart as a default but move to the loose chart when the hand permits it.
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mike4066
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,943
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Its not too bad you're following SSH by the letter right now. Use the Tight Chart as a default but move to the loose chart when the hand permits it. |
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not2smart
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: I belong to the night... and to the hidden corners of every room in the house
Posts: 32
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when you are playing the "speculative" hands, you want two conditions to be true pre-flop:
1. you want to see the flop for only one bet if possible
2. you want a very multi-way pot to ensure big pots in order to compensate for the high percentage of dumps on the flop
the reason these hands are to be played from late middle/late position is because then you will have a better idea if those 2 conditions will be present. if you are in late position and the pot is still unraised, then the likelihood of the pot remaining un-raised is quite better than if you were in early position. the second factor (multi-way pot) is also better guaged from later position. you will know, by the number of limpers before you, whether the hand is to be mult-way or not. if you are first in from late-mid to late position.. then you are not likely to have a multi-way pot.. in that case, i would dump many of the speculative hands such as 22, 76s, etc..
There are some speculative hands, however; that perform well in EITHER very mult-way pots OR in very short-handed pots. With these hands, such as 88 or A6s, etc... you may consider raising if you are first in from late-mid to late position. this will help to ensure a 2 or 3 handed pot... the type that these particular speculative hands do well in.
A lot of this type of play depends on how good you are at post-flop play. For instance, I would never try this with a hand such as A9o .. however, if I had to guess, that might be a good play for someone like jeff or fnord who are very good at post-flop play. I don't know that for sure.. like i said.. just a guess.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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your drawing hands should be MP/LP mainly because you have no guarantee on enough people to pump the pot for your draw. say you end up limping JT in EP, everyone folds and you have a raise behind you, what now? you're likely beat here and there's not enough in the pot to chase any flopped draws you might pick up.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by not2smart
1. you want to see the flop for only one bet if possible
2. you want a very multi-way pot to ensure big pots in order to compensate for the high percentage of dumps on the flop
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3. you want POSITION so you your post-flop decisions will be clear and you will be more likely to get to see additional cards free or cheaply.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by not2smart
With these hands, such as 88 or A6s, etc...
For instance, I would never try this with a hand such as A9o ...
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You'd rather raise A6s from late position than A9o?
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not2smart
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: I belong to the night... and to the hidden corners of every room in the house
Posts: 32
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thenonsequitur...
1. absolutely. a primary factor for playing the speculative hands in late position IS the power of position on the flop. thank you for addressing my omission.
2. i don't really know about the raising hands when first in from mid-late position. that is something about my game that i am not comfortable with so i usually just muck my draw hands and raise with premium hands so that i don't have to make those decisions. i realize this is weak, but it keeps me out of trouble. any suggestions for getting more knowledgable in this area? the main reason that i wrote what i wrote about raising first in with AXs or 88 is because Miller mentions those hands as good to do that with. Now that i think about it.. the suitedness isn't worth near as much as the pips when playing short-handed, is it? thank you for your post.. and any further help will be appreciated.
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Ninjas aren't just great warriors.. they are great people too!
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rubixstreub
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 887
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I ask because I find my V$PIP is on the low end of the spectrum 14-15. I feel like could add hands, but even following the Loose SSH guide I'm rarely above 16. Is this something I should be concerned with? Ask a break even limit player over 20k hands I clearly need to either add hands, become much better post-flop or both. At the tighter non Party games I'm playing even less hands because of small pots I don't see limping with these drawing hands as being profitable.
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