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Shark Bait
Old 08-10-2005, 11:58 AM     Post subject: limp/3 bet #1 (permalink)  
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OK I'm seeing a lot of this stupid limp/3 bet. what the hell are these people doing? Sometimes they have pocket aces, sometimes they have crap.

I'd do this silly play in EP in NL. Like limp, hope for raise, and then push. But this is limit, what's the deal? It's just inviting more people in to crack your aces.

The worst thing is this play pays them off more than if they had just raised probably 50% of the time. They lose with them more, but it seems like they're winning more per pot with them. I'm not sure about how good or bad this is, but I've got to think it's bad.

Here's a hand that I played absolutely terrible where they did this dumb play and I fell for it. This is just an example, not really looking for advice on this hand specifically. I know I played this bad and I probably could have seen the showdown for 2-3 less big bets lost.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, Q.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) Q, A, 6 (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP1 checks.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8 (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, MP1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (16.50 BB) J (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Ad Qd (two pair, aces and queens).
MP1 has Ah Ac (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: MP1 wins 20.50 BB.

So...I guess my point is, exactly how stupid is this play and what comments do you have about it? I don't know if I should ask how to play against someone that does this, because they probably don't even know what game they're playing.

Should I give people credit for aces when they do this? Maybe call down with a good hand?
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Old 08-10-2005, 12:43 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Whether there are a lot of opponents in the hand or not too many doesn't matter as per profitability of aces. Although you ARE giving them implied odds. But if the aces get cracked, oh well. At least this way they get one more bet into the pot. Actually probably more bets because someone who called with a hand they shouldn't have called with will now fold to two more bets...
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Fnord
Old 08-10-2005, 04:50 PM #3 (permalink)  
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It's usually something stupid, I play it the same.
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LeFou
Old 08-10-2005, 06:54 PM #4 (permalink)  
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hope the histories aren't annoying you guys, but i'm getting desparate

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A, A.
1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, 4 folds, BB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP1 caps, MP2 calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 7, 6, K (4 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, MP2 calls, BB folds, Hero caps, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (13.75 BB) T (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (16.75 BB) K (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 18.75 BB
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JJDylan
Old 08-10-2005, 07:25 PM #5 (permalink)  
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i hate the limp/3bet play....but in sharkbait's hand, you can easily lay this down on the turn...the limp/3-bet followed by checking the ace on the flop and coming alive on the turn just screams "i have a monster hand"
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Gatlin Dan
Old 08-11-2005, 05:03 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Whether there are a lot of opponents in the hand or not too many doesn't matter as per profitability of aces.
What is it you are saying here? I don't think I am following your train of thought.

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mdwav
Old 08-11-2005, 11:59 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
So...I guess my point is, exactly how stupid is this play and what comments do you have about it?
The limp-reraise (with AA/KK) is, IMO, a play meant for NL. You try to take down the pot without a flop, at the cost of giving away your hand. But this is limit, you're never gonna take down the pot uncontested for 1 extra sb. By attempting a limp-raise, you either a) give everyone a cheap flop, or b) build an out of control pot where everyone has odds to chase. So yes, it is pretty stupid to limp-3bet with AA/KK.

As Fnord pointed out, they usually have something stupid. I call this the 'spite raise'. They wanted to see a cheap flop, you raised them, so the're re-raising you out of spite. I've seen too many fish make this play with hands like AT/KQ to automatically give them credit for a big pair. However, I'll take note that they limp-3bet, and use this extra bit of info to help my read on later streets.
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euphoricism
Old 08-12-2005, 03:28 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Yup. When i see someone do it, I immediately go to their notes and write down "Limp raise = AA" Or "Limp raise = crap"

This usually comes in handy later.
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:08 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Whether there are a lot of opponents in the hand or not too many doesn't matter as per profitability of aces.
What is it you are saying here? I don't think I am following your train of thought.
Aces are roughly the same EV no matter how many opponents.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 08-12-2005, 04:42 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I would expect most limp/3-bets to be mid-pocket pairs. From my NL background, this is commonly what happens. 88 limps UTG, raise behind him and he decides to turn it up and rep AA. I don't know the equivalant "repping power" you have in limit but I'm sure the thought process can be transfered over. They probably feel they're 50/50 and head on this street.

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Shark Bait
Old 08-12-2005, 05:42 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
I would expect most limp/3-bets to be mid-pocket pairs. From my NL background, this is commonly what happens. 88 limps UTG, raise behind him and he decides to turn it up and rep AA. I don't know the equivalant "repping power" you have in limit but I'm sure the thought process can be transfered over. They probably feel they're 50/50 and head on this street.

-'rilla
The big difference is people have no problem calling you down in limit

btw....it happened again....ugh...I think I may just give them credit for the aces if I see this again and just check call. I did write the note for this player though.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K.
3 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP1 3-bets, CO calls, Hero caps, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) Q, J, 2 (3 players)
MP1 bets, CO folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) 5 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 6 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Kh Kd (one pair, kings).
MP1 has As Ah (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP1 wins 12.75 BB.
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Shark Bait
Old 09-02-2005, 05:00 AM #12 (permalink)  
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ahhhhh finally an example where this stupid play got wrecked.

Ultimate Bet 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3, 4.
4 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 2, 5, J (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, SB folds.

Turn: (2.50 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) A (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 3s 4d (straight, five high).
MP3 has Ac Ad (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.50 BB.
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Demiparadigm
Old 09-02-2005, 06:39 AM #13 (permalink)  
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http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...fpart=all&vc=1

An analysis of limp reraises.
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Shark Bait
Old 09-02-2005, 08:46 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
They don't really go into much detail about if it's a good play or not. In my experience, the limp/3 bet (or LRR as they call it, which makes more sense) is AA or KK 90% of the time. The thing that bothers me is that the people that do this are winning huge pots and not losing them as much as I would expect.
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Fnord
Old 09-02-2005, 10:20 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
The thing that bothers me is that the people that do this are winning huge pots and not losing them as much as I would expect.
Where does it say that?

There is a time and place for the LRR, but it's not for me. I'm in there gamb00ling up so my Aces do get paid off..
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ihategnomes
Old 09-02-2005, 04:28 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I think limp-raising with crap in limit is over. The last 10 times I have seen it go down, they were AA 9 of the times. NL players playing limit, yuuuuuuuuuuuum...
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pokerfanatic
Old 09-02-2005, 04:41 PM #17 (permalink)  
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actully i have yet to see a limp 3 bet not be AA... but we are talking .5/1 here...
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thenonsequitur
Old 09-02-2005, 04:58 PM #18 (permalink)  
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My observations at 1/2 and 2/4 6-max (the games I have the most experience in):

When someone limps, and everyone folds to someone that raises, and it folds back to the limper who re-raises (making it headsup), the limper will more often than not have a mid-range pocket pair.

When someone limps, someone raises, several people cold call, then the limper re-raises, the limper will more often than not have a mid-to-high suited connector (JTs-AKs).

Of course, my personal experiences are by no means a complete picture. And LRR tendencies in 6-max might be different from LRR tendencies in full ring games.
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Shark Bait
Old 09-03-2005, 09:29 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Shark Bait
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
There is a time and place for the LRR, but it's not for me. I'm in there gamb00ling up so my Aces do get paid off..
Let me take a stab at this...

So you limp EP and several others limp as well, and then a LAP raises from the blinds. Then a re-raise might be a good idea?

The problem with this is at the lower limits, many people will limp/call 3. It's funny, but this is an actual stat in PT. I guess I've done it a couple times in 35,000 hands.
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