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Sheetah
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10-21-2007, 12:31 PM
Post subject: Limit still good?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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I'm kinda bored of NL grind. Last days I've been watching some pretty spewy play at LHE tables and now I'm getting idea to go back there, after like two years ... for a while.
Basically I'm asking how good/bad are games now (2/4 and 3/6). Is it realistic to expect 1k+/month assuming 2 or 3-tabling 3 or 4 hours/day on average?
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Games are quite good. Almost all the sharks of old have left for the NL tables.
Four tabling for four hours a day you'll play about 1600 hands a day. At 2/4 and 2bb/100 that'll be $8/100 hands. Expect to make about $128 a day on average. That'd be 1k every 10.28 days or so average.
Might have screwed up that math, double check it for me.
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Sheetah
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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Thanks, just what I wanted to hear.
Well, guess it's now time to re-learn not to call raises with small PPs.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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I played NL again for about 3 weeks to whore a bonus at a room where limit traffic was sparse. Hated it. So boring.
Limit is still goot. Scratch that. I'd say limit is now better than it was a year ago. Excluding bonuses and rakeback, a reasonably skilled player should have no problem making 2BB/100. If you whore or get a good rb deal, you're golden.
That said, are you still a reasonably skilled player?
(Calling a raise with small PPs is fine if many have already entered the pot in front of you or even in ep if the table is extremely loose. It's all situational...don't take it out of your arsenal completely.)
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Depends how many people have called before you. 
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sheetah
Thanks, just what I wanted to hear.
Well, guess it's now time to re-learn not to call raises with small PPs.
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well if a 90/50 raises and i'm directly to his left i iso 3 bet a wide range of hands... including shit like 22... you can out play the guy post flop it's not that hard to do yes it will increase your variance but hell short term this game is gambling... i really don't know the bet site to play at yet but i do know on weekends and at night there are sooo many dumb asses that i have seen all the way up though 2/4 (hasn't really looked higher then that)...
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
on weekends and at night there are sooo many dumb asses that i have seen all the way up though 2/4 (hasn't really looked higher then that)...
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You can find dumbasses waayy higher than 2/4 on a friday night if you know where to look
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jibalob
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
on weekends and at night there are sooo many dumb asses that i have seen all the way up though 2/4 (hasn't really looked higher then that)...
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You can find dumbasses waayy higher than 2/4 on a friday night if you know where to look |
well i figured that lol... there are fish at every level just the percentages of them drop as it goes higher... hell some of the taggs at say 2/4 might be a fish at the 200/400 who knows...
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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I was playing a 5/10 game last night where 3 out of 5 players had a VPIP of over 70%
On another table (different network) I was playing a 5/10 full ring game which was made up pretty mush as follows
1: Fish ( at least 50%+ VPIP and AF < 1)
2: Fish ( at lease 50%+ VPIP and AF < 1)
3: Fish ( at lease 50%+ VPIP and AF < 1)
4: Guy who thinks he's tag but is really just a fish with tight starting hand requirements
5: HERO
6: Guy who thinks he's tag but is really just a fish with tight starting hand requirements
7) Very good player
8) Fish (at least 50%+ VPIP and AF < 1)
9) Fish (at least 50%+ VPIP and AF < 1)
10) Guy who thinks he's tag but is really just a fish with tight starting hand requirements
I was up 20BB after one orbit  , 25BB after two
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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Sheetah
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Limit is still goot. Scratch that. I'd say limit is now better than it was a year ago. Excluding bonuses and rakeback, a reasonably skilled player should have no problem making 2BB/100. If you whore or get a good rb deal, you're golden. |
I've got the same impression.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
That said, are you still a reasonably skilled player?
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I'm EV+++ in NL100 at the moment, with what I believe solid understanding of the game and after playing few LHE sessions last few days I'm pretty confident to answer: 'OH YES!'
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
(Calling a raise with small PPs is fine if many have already entered the pot in front of you or even in ep if the table is extremely loose. It's all situational...don't take it out of your arsenal completely.)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arborman
Depends how many people have called before you. |
Ok, ok, ok 
It was more like ... manner of speech. I understand the odds and ranges.
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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(Brag post)
Limit is still very good:
OK, small sample size but you have to understand that I suck at teh poker and am still completely dominating 5/10 games with the help of very careful table / seat selection.
FL is making a comeback
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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How is PokerOffice considering you tight aggressive seeing more than a third of flops? I thought tight was defined as <30%.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Plus it's always worthwhile to have more games to choose from as you move up in limits, the games change, etc.
Certainly, this is a huge asset for me when going to Vegas as I can sit in on a bunch of different games/limits waiting for a seat and change what I'd planned on playing if I see a great game.
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
How is PokerOffice considering you tight aggressive seeing more than a third of flops? I thought tight was defined as <30%. |
I changed the autorate rules to work by VPIP because saw flop % can be unusually high in loose passive 5 max and 6 max games where you are getting lots of free flops from the blinds.
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PLEASE READ ULTIMATE BET THREAD IN "ONLINE POKER ROOMS" FORUM
Wait, this is .05/.10 and you got sexied, I can't believe that shit, limit must really be dying.[/quote]
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Sheetah
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Plus it's always worthwhile to have more games to choose from as you move up in limits, the games change, etc.
Certainly, this is a huge asset for me when going to Vegas as I can sit in on a bunch of different games/limits waiting for a seat and change what I'd planned on playing if I see a great game.
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Yes, yes, very good point. Why limit yourself to be solid NL or solid Limit player, when you can be both. And speaking of 'expanding horizons' playing NL for example can give you some specific insights about the core principles of the game that otherwise you would not get that soon, which might be quite useful in Limit game (and vice versa).
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Sheetah
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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Aaaaand to answer my own question - after testing the waters last few days it's safe to say: Yes the games are quite good! Apparently most sharks have gone to NL long ago and there are still plenty of fish buying into 3/6 game with $94.27 (and I've seen plenty of loooose 5/10 tables with biggest stack being less then $170) hoping to get lucky, etc, etc ...
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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The most anyone ever needs at a limit table is 12 BB (all streets capped). So buy-ins don't tell you much unless someone has a tiny stack (fishy who expects to lose but doesnt want to lose too much or too fast) or huge and pointless stack (greenhorn fishy who buys in with his whole roll).
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Sheetah
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 278
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True, but from my experience good players don't bother buying in 'shallow' and constantly rebuying, while fish usually put predetermined 'amount to put on risk' and quite often it's their whole roll. The beauty of limit is that unlike NL where busting them is not much of a profit, the moment they have like 10BB+ they're officially full stack. And that's the biggest adjustment of mine when table selecting: in NL I tend to have position on big stacks, but in limit I prefer position on really small stacks.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Interesting. I try to get position on people who see a lot of flops, and people who are maniacs or otherwise foolish with their play. Stack size rarely enters into my mind unless I'm thinking about calling a raise with a marginal hand (and the raiser won't be able to pay me off much if I hit).
I usually just buy in at the default, and rebuy if my stack starts getting close to a minimum. I want to be able to cap every street if the opportunity comes up, but beyond that I just don't pay much attention to stacks from one session to the next.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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I've been thinking about this a bit. I know stack size is critical in NL. I can see how a big stack would be important in a live Limit game - you want people to see you as a good player, so your marginal hands have better chances.
Online I only notice when someone buys in with their whole roll (i.e. $49.44 at the .05-.10 tables) or if they have a micro stack (i.e. 50 cents). The big roll tells me they are clueless, the small tells me they are clueless and don't care if they lose.
I usually just make sure I have enough to get me through a hand - 12BB, plus a cushion to pay the blinds and a few hands without dipping below that threshold, and I rebuy if I need to (though most of the time that isn't a problem, excluding the last 3 days).
It does become important preflop. If you have one preflop raiser who only has 4BB in his stack, the value of calling him (or raising) on the button is affected, and your hand value is affected. On the one hand this player is probably just blasting off his last few chips before leaving the table - and thus probably has a weak ace or something. On the other hand winning their micro stack makes calling, even limping, with a marginal preflop hand a lot less appealing. And you are a lot more likely to go to showdown, because they will go all in on the flop or turn, so no chasing them off anything either.
If a poor player with an adequate stack (>12BB) raises or open limps I should be much more likely to call than against the person with nothing.
Hmm. More grist for the limit brain to chew on each hand.
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arborman
I can see how a big stack would be important in a live Limit game - you want people to see you as a good player, so your marginal hands have better chances.
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<threadjack warning>
I would think just the opposite, that you want people to see you as a bad player so they will underestimate you (I suppose giving your good hands better chances of good payoffs). Perhaps the idea is that you have more marginal hands than good hands?
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Oh, no! Not another learning experience!
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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When I was grinding 2/4 and 3/6 I'd always buy in for weird amounts, like $53.27 at 2/4.
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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Sometimes you induce a bluff, sometimes you induce a "wtf?" Could cause them to screw up, too!
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Oh, no! Not another learning experience!
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard
Perhaps the idea is that you have more marginal hands than good hands?
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Ok I confess I was just channeling something I read by Ed Miller somewhere about giving the impression of a winner even if you are getting creamed.
Honestly at micros I think it is pretty rare for people to even think about your stack at all in NL, and never ever in Limit. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't give villain's stack a peek before raising him to isolate (because that works so often...), or limping those suited connectors in late position.
It would affect my play in marginal hands. I'll raise anyone with AA, but if there is one limper with a 2 BB stack and I'm on the button with 89s then I'm going to let it go, because the potential payoff for hitting is too small. Of course, I'm probably dropping it anyway with only one limper (3+ would be ideal), but the point is there regardless.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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The only time I ever pay attention to someone's stack in limit is if they are short and will be all in before the turn betting is over.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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