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Are limit players donks worse than NL donks?

  
 
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:42 PM     Post subject: Are limit players donks worse than NL donks? #1 (permalink)  
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I think that players who play limit are worse than the players who play no limit because they would lose too fast in no limit tables. But FTR IRC disagreed. But I have obtained proof of how bad some people at 0.50/1 are:

Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9, 9
UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 4 folds, UTG calls

Flop: (5.5 SB) 7, A, A (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: (3.75 BB) Q (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls

Total pot: 5.75 BB

Results in white below:
UTG had 2, 2 (two pair, Aces and Queens)
Hero had 9, 9 (two pair, Aces and Queens)
Outcome: Hero won $5.50



He called my river bluff! He got me there...
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okiman
Old 08-30-2008, 02:02 AM #2 (permalink)  
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What's wrong with that? He had 3 pair!

When I find someone like this I sit down with them as often as possible.
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Old 08-30-2008, 04:23 AM #3 (permalink)  
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iopq,

i have written MANY a post about the same theory. you wont get NL zealots to ever come around. and, thats fine with me. they can keep their nitty pushfest of a game and let us have the fish that drive them crazy.

yes, they migrate over to LHE eventually. they dont know why. they just "give limit a try" and hit a heater because they luckbox some hands. they fall in love and come back. they make dillhole moves, but dont get punished with their stack. only with about 6 BB's. so, they stick around some more. they catch another small heater, and fall in love. then, the boom lowers on them so slowly they dont ever see it coming until they are in the water.

oh, and i dont like waiting to catch the fish at a NL table only to have someone else stack his ass while i run cold for those 25 hands. i like LHE because it takes all day to lose their money which gives me much more time to let skill catch up and give me my fair share of his loot.

dont forget there is LESS information on LHE strategy out there nowadays. and, no one cares to read it because "it's a boring game." that opens the door for a true "investor mentality." someone that likes Buffet and his value theories. imo, thats where LHE sits right now, and Omaha. but, i dont think Omaha will catch as many fish because LHE is still hold'em...sort of.

but, if you can get ahead of the curve, and play solid, the fish will start swimming right into your net. they have definitely not improved/disappeared like the NL fishies have over the past couple years.

rake/profitability are your issues. but, as a general theory, you are spot on, imo. let the NL guys keep trying to exploit all the 18/15 TAGfish. i'll take the 40/8 guys. it's easier on the brain cells.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Sheetah
Old 08-30-2008, 01:07 PM     Post subject: Re: Are limit players donks worse than NL donks? #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I think that players who play limit are worse than the players who play no limit
Shhhhhhh ...

( lhe is the new nl )




I'm this close to making a permanent transition back to lhe; so far it's 'now and then'. Lhe players are much much worse than their nl-educated-semifish counterparts. Time and time again I'm surprised by horrible play at stakes all the way up to 10/20.

My guess is that an interesting thing happened: long ago as the common knowledge grew, at one point people starting to complain about lhe not as profitable as before etc.; NL was not as much popular and hardly anyone had a clue back then; Eldorado-ish NL fever took place and more and more players transitioned (fish mostly - pro's weren't that willing to give up their skill advantage in favor of learning a new game and being fish again); After significant portion of fish/semifish left, pro's were in dry waters going after each other; Eventually pro's had to move themselves and most did; LHE slowly became uninteresting, away from radars, low profile; During time, shark-uninfested lhe waters got some healthy influx of new fish, 'life' grew ...

Today, I think that games are close to what they were once. The only problem is there are less tables running, but nevertheless fish is the fish. I tried to do some quick math on profitability and it looks even better. In a nutshell: say you have 2k-ish BR and play 2/4 (500BB BR - bottom of conservative range); if you are any good you can make ~1.5BB; add in RB and it's close to $7/100 and 4x tabling it's >$25/hour - now that's something, not many 100nl-ers can do that, not to even mention '100nl w/ 2k BR' implications. Bottom line: playing lhe with smallish BR is much better investment, probably close to 2x better.
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Old 08-30-2008, 01:46 PM #5 (permalink)  
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4 tabling? I'm 6 tabling! Although I'm not playing 2/4

I still think I can get 3bb/100 in .50/1 which comes out to 18 dollars an hour

although I did drop a huge amount trying to learn 6max...
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Old 08-30-2008, 06:01 PM #6 (permalink)  
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the main thing i keep telling myself is exactly what sheetah said, too.

mediocre 100NL players are going through stressful variance to beat the game for a 2+ winrate. at 1/2 (the same bb=ptbb stuff), if i can sustain a 2+, i make the same money on a MUCH lower bankroll, allowing myself to play there and beyond much sooner. if you measure yourself against a 100NL player, its only a 1+ at 2/4 LHE...and the rakeback is better.

the standard 100NL roll is $2k+. but, for me to play 1/2, i need $600-$1000. so, why would i carry twice the bankroll, play half the stakes, and make the same money with long stretches of trading stax back and forth?

i just dont see the debate anymore. but, man, i used to catch shit for it.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Old 08-30-2008, 06:24 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Well, here's what it boils down to:

I'm rolled for NL10 and 0.5/1
PTBB for NL is .2 and for limit 1
I'd need to have the winning rate of 5x in NL compared to limit

when I'm rolled for NL25 I'd be rolled for $1/$2
.5 ptbb vs. 2
so 4x


But make no mistake, the variance at limit is much higher because you lose more even in a very mundane top pair hand in limit than you do in NL. In limit it's pretty usual to lose 4 BB on top pair good kicker, while in NL you won't lose half of your stack on a hand like KJ on a king high flop.

I go up and down around 60-100BB every day, but 6-10 buyins every day in NL would not be typical. But as I said in another post, reducing variance is not a concern in the long run.
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Old 08-30-2008, 07:15 PM #8 (permalink)  
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iopq,

you want some NL advice? boy, i'm glad you asked.

stop playing the same hands you play in LHE. Q9s has no power in NL games at 10NL.

in NL, you play for TPTK and punish draws. sets are a gold mine. you play 22+, and raise some of them on the BTN. the games are very much different, but very much the same. you just need to make subtle adjustments. you bet large in relation to the pot. you raise more than 2X. you dont raise to "protect your hand" with 2nd pair in the hole.

you should be killing NL games for a much higher rate, down here, than you are at LHE. they ARE more profitable.

however, you would play LHE because you like the "sweet science," or you can play higher limits with the same bankroll, or you are training for the higher limits where the winrates are comparable.

but, make no mistake, your NL winrate should be higher. and, its likely because you play the same hands in NL as you do in LHE.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 08-30-2008, 07:39 PM #9 (permalink)  
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over 30k hands, i'm beating 1/2 for 4.5BB/100
playing 2-4 tables earning close to $20/h + bonuses/rakeback this is much much better than i ever did at NL.
Bonuses/rakeback go so much faster too!
I don't think i'll ever go back to NL except for fun from time to time. The only site where fish still abound is Everest, but i'm a bit disillusioned w it, since there are no cool bonuses anymore.
I stick to limit games (HE, Stud, OH8...) where ppl have absolutely no clue of what they are doing.
Also, imo, variance is lower in limit games where a suckout can never cost you more than a few BBs.
I had a hard time with tilt due to high variance in NL, and this has considerably diminished in limit games.

True, there are fewer tables open for limit games, but they are so MUCH juicier!!!
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Old 08-30-2008, 07:56 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Chopper, I've already explained I'd need to beat NL at 5x the rate I beat limit because of what I'm rolled for.

Variance in limit is worse simply because you're playing a higher level.
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Sheetah
Old 08-30-2008, 09:26 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
...the variance at limit is much higher...
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
...variance is lower in limit games...
Heh, it's a tough one. Technically if we take standard deviation as a measure of swing-iness then it's clear cut - typical 6max lhe sd is in 20BBs range while for nl it is like 40BBs => nl is 2x swing-ier. But, since limit BR requirements are much lower measured in BBs then typical lhe swing will feel higher measured in 'portions of your roll'. In the end the latter is just an illusion - SD is the only relevant factor science-wise. Just stick to BR recommendations, do not take shots underroled and you'll be fine.
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Old 08-30-2008, 09:33 PM #12 (permalink)  
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like I said I'm rolled for a game 5x the size in limit
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Chopper
Old 08-31-2008, 02:31 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Chopper, I've already explained I'd need to beat NL at 5x the rate I beat limit because of what I'm rolled for.

Variance in limit is worse simply because you're playing a higher level.
part one made no sense to me. bankroll and winrate and completely independent of each other. one does not dictate how you control the other.

part two is simply untrue, and sheetah just pointed it out. variance in NL is bigger. variance in LHE just lasts longer. and, its all a factor of bet structure.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:34 AM #14 (permalink)  
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part 1.

I'm rolled for a 5x higher limit than NL table
I'd need to win 5x more PTBB in NL than limit to play NL more profitably
What is there not to understand?

part 2. if standard deviation for limit is 20BB and for NL it's 40BB, if you include the fact that 20BB in limit is $20 and 40BB in NL is $8 then yes, standard deviation in limit is higher
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okiman
Old 08-31-2008, 05:26 AM #15 (permalink)  
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The much faster rate of player points accumulation (while clearing bonuses faster) also give plenty of other opportunities to build a bankroll faster and extract more along the way. The FPP tourneys/bonuses are soft/easy to clear too. A moderate tourney player can add quite a bit through these perks.

Having only ever played micro stakes in NL and almost exclusively the same in limit, how quickly do the NL games get difficult versus the limit games? Are fish still easy to find in 3/6, 5/10 Limit or 100NL, 200NL games?
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Fnord
Old 08-31-2008, 12:38 PM #16 (permalink)  
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LHE fustrates me more and more the better I get at playing poker. You just don't have the tools to really harshy punish someone when you can put them on a range. Too many decisions are driven by your hand strength.

Online, if it wasn't for the rake, it's not such a big problem. In live games, it just makes it a waste of my time compared to the Unlimited Hold'Them tables (the Cadilac of Poker.)

The $3/$5 and $5/$10 play in California is laughably bad.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 08-31-2008, 12:43 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okiman
Are fish still easy to find in 3/6, 5/10 Limit or 100NL, 200NL games?
It's all about finding people who play worse enough than you to beat the rake. As you move up you learn how to fustrate tight players.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Old 08-31-2008, 02:11 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okiman
Are fish still easy to find in 3/6, 5/10 Limit or 100NL, 200NL games?
Can't comment on NL because I've never really played it besides some small stake donkaments...

I find the 3/6 LHE games at Stars pretty laughable, especially on weekends. I've been beating 3/6 all year for 1.5 BB before bonuses. There's some standard ABC TAGs who play but rarely does anyone show up who makes me think 'oh god not this guy'. Pretty easy to find 4 good tables.

The 5/10 and 10/20 games at Stars tend to have some good TAGS, good LAGs and not many fish. I haven't really learned yet how to adjust to good LAGs and since these games tend to be tough and hence not really profitable for me to play full time, I finally decided a few weeks ago to swallow my pride and only play them when there's a good seat at a good table, at least until I get better.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Fnord
Old 08-31-2008, 02:14 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
when there's a good seat at a good table
The value of this is vastly under-rated. People tend to have an inflated view of their ability to over-come position and win without an idiot or two giving away his monies.

I made a lot of money at 3/6 by giving 2 nits position, isolating fish and playing short-handed poker at full tables. Comically profitable and low variance while it lasted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
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DrivingDog
Old 08-31-2008, 03:27 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Yeah when you consider that even after bonuses the rake is around 3BB/100 at mid-stakes you can't really expect to sit down with five conscious opponents and turn a profit unless you are some kind of Bryce clone. Even if I can outplay some of these guys for 1 or 2 BB/100 (which is doubtful) where does that leave me?
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Sheetah
Old 08-31-2008, 03:39 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
...bankroll and winrate and completely independent of each other. one does not dictate how you control the other...
Ummm ... I see what you are trying to say but the above statement is plain wrong. There's lots of confusion about BR management so for the sake of completeness, once again:

BR = C * SD^2 / WR

or a slightly different formula (but essentially the same)

BR = - (SD^2/(2*WR)) * ln(RoR)

where ...
BR = proper bankroll (obv)
C = comfort level (reciprocal of the Kelly fraction)
RoR = desired risk of ruin
SD = standard deviation
WR = win rate
(it's important to note that C and RoR is what you choose depending on how much are you willing to risk)

So, win rate IS important and in fact: the higher the win rate, the lower BR is needed (although SD is (^^^exponentially) more important than WR).
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Old 08-31-2008, 08:39 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
part 1.

I'm rolled for a 5x higher limit than NL table
I'd need to win 5x more PTBB in NL than limit to play NL more profitably
What is there not to understand?
i thought you were talking about the SAME levels. comparing apples to apples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fnord
LHE fustrates me more and more the better I get at playing poker. You just don't have the tools to really harshy punish someone when you can put them on a range.
hence, the reason i feel LHE is fishier. THEY just dont get punished enough by other players (bet structure doesnt allow it). therefore, even the really bad players survive longer.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Jack Sawyer
Old 08-31-2008, 10:17 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 guys, guys


play whatever you want. whatever you feel comfortable with.

if you can beat limit, play limit.
if you can beat no limit, play the cadillac.
if you can beat both, then play both.
if you can beat others, then play them too.
if you can't beat any, get better or quit.


don't waste time arguing nonsense. time is precious: go outside and live!
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Old 08-31-2008, 10:20 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by okiman
Are fish still easy to find in 3/6, 5/10 Limit or 100NL, 200NL games?
Can't comment on NL because I've never really played it besides some small stake donkaments...

I find the 3/6 LHE games at Stars pretty laughable, especially on weekends. I've been beating 3/6 all year for 1.5 BB before bonuses. There's some standard ABC TAGs who play but rarely does anyone show up who makes me think 'oh god not this guy'. Pretty easy to find 4 good tables.

The 5/10 and 10/20 games at Stars tend to have some good TAGS, good LAGs and not many fish. I haven't really learned yet how to adjust to good LAGs and since these games tend to be tough and hence not really profitable for me to play full time, I finally decided a few weeks ago to swallow my pride and only play them when there's a good seat at a good table, at least until I get better.
im intrigued. Whats the difference bewteen 3/6 and 5/10 these days.? Just more half decent TAGs who dont pay off all the time or some creative ones?
I guess it cant be 5/10 fr party-esque from pre UIGEA
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Jack Sawyer
Old 08-31-2008, 10:45 PM #25 (permalink)  
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 what is funny, is when people are playing NL, and are convinced that they are playing NL, but they are really playing Limit

thats it. i will now retreat quietly from your nice Limit forum now. Good day all.
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Old 08-31-2008, 11:37 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001

im intrigued. Whats the difference bewteen 3/6 and 5/10 these days.? Just more half decent TAGs who dont pay off all the time or some creative ones?
I guess it cant be 5/10 fr party-esque from pre UIGEA
More creative play at 5/10 and up definitely. Guys 3betting preflop with garbage hands, raising the turn with bluffs and semi-bluffs, etc., but picking good spots to do these things. Thinking players. Playing laggy preflop but good postflop, using misleading timing tells, etc. A lot harder to know where you are in a hand against them and you get put in a lot of tough spots.

I'm lucky to find one or maybe two good seats at 5/10 or 10/20 on a given night and once the fish busts out I don't like hanging around. It's just so much easier to sit at four or five 3/6 tables and take donations.

At 3/6 about half the players are TAGs and about 90% of these just play ABC- bet their good hands, call with draws, fold their bad hands. Play the same hands the same way all the time. They might as well turn their cards face up, but it's enough to win at these tables. The few at 3/6 who try to be good LAGs don't seem to be very good at picking their spots and just look like they're spewing to me. And of course the fish are still the fish...
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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kazmaniandevil
Old 09-18-2008, 06:41 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Playing limit tends to get frustrating. But the cause of said frustration is a LHE players bread and butter. Donks chasing draws. The ones who call all flush and up and down draws because the risk to be felted is so low. When these donks hit it is can be frustrating. TAG works so much better in LHE, IMO. You can play TAG all day and get felted by a donk call. You lose your stack and have a long way to go for +EV.
I understand that in the long run you will make up for the unjustified feltings, but how many can you take before you are broke? Can you take a bad session? How about a bad week or month or term? These things do happen. Once again we go back to bankroll benefits of LHE. A dead horse that no longer needs to be beaten
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