|
Fnord
|
09-07-2004, 02:56 AM
Post subject: LHE: Pre-flop question
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Typical Party 2/4 table with a mixed bag of players. 3-4 loose/passives, a couple other TAgish players that have opened up their games to abuse the loose spots, a couple rocks and the rest unknown.
4 limpers to you in the CO with 88.
Call, raise or fold?
Same situation, however you're at a Hawaii 4/8 game filled with loose/bad tourists.
Call, raise or fold?
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
Staple Gun
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Gamblers Anonymous
Posts: 812
|
|
In both cases i would say call, as far as im concrned 8-8 is more of a drawing hand with more than 3 people in the pot, i would call and hope to hit trips, if there 2 or 3 overs on the board and no 8 after the flop i would fold on any raise probably.
|
|
|
|
michael1123
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
|
|
Raise in the first example with the tight passive players. Bluff on the flop if you miss your set, even if there's overcards.
In the second example call and just play for a set. You know you'll be called down in that game, so you know your 8s won't hold up and that you won't be able to bet them out of the pot.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by staple gun
if there 2 or 3 overs on the board and no 8 after the flop i would fold on any raise probably.
|
Would you continue to play 88 on an Qxx 2 suited flop (where x != 8) in an unraised pot? If bet into, would you call, raise or fold? Reverse implied odds apply here, right?
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by michael1123
Raise in the first example with the tight passive players. Bluff on the flop if you miss your set, even if there's overcards.
|
How far would you take your bluff? Are you likely to get 4-6 other players to fold out before the river?
|
|
|
|
michael1123
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
How far would you take your bluff? Are you likely to get 4-6 other players to fold out before the river?
|
It depends on the board and the action based on how far I'd take it. And you've said that all of the players at the table are tight. If they don't hit the flop, you are rather likely to take it down. They're more likely to believe you have a strong hand since you raised preflop.
If there's one caller on the flop, I'm probably betting the turn, checking the river. If there's multiple callers or any raise, on a flop with overcards, I give up if they bet on the turn, and check the turn if they check to me. Depending on the board I could consider calling a single bet on the river by one of the aggressive players, if it folds everyone else out.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by michael1123
And you've said that all of the players at the table are tight.
|
I said there are several loose/passives. Expect calls for single bets with overs and any pair. I admire the aggression and with 2 or 3 opponents this might be a profitable line, but I don't see defaulting to aggro here being right.
|
|
|
|
scgolfer
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 629
|
|
I would call with both, in both situations unless you hit trips you are going to lose. Because at both your going to get multiple callers to end. With two cards to go I might stay to see turn if unraised to me, because pot would be relatively large, and implied odds would be great if you hit trips, once again because at both games mostly likely more than one player to the end.
|
|
Holy crap I cant play against Yoda!!
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by scgolfer
I would call with both, in both situations unless you hit trips you are going to lose.
|
Most of the time, yes.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by scgolfer
Because at both your going to get multiple callers to end. With two cards to go I might stay to see turn if unraised to me, because pot would be relatively large, and implied odds would be great if you hit trips, once again because at both games mostly likely more than one player to the end.
|
Do the math, but if there isn't a pre-flop raise I don't think the implied odds are there for such a long-shot.
|
|
|
|
michael1123
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
Posts: 1,720
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
I said there are several loose/passives.
|
Whoops, thought you said tight passives. So yeah, now it plays basically like the second example.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
I'll wait for Toasty to chime in before I give my answers...
|
|
|
|
Toasty
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
|
|
Hand 1 I Raise
Hand 2 I Call, I may raise this one too.
|
|
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Toasty
Hand 1 I raise
Hand 2 I Call
|
I like the result. How did you get there?
|
|
|
|
Toasty
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: England UK
Posts: 1,522
|
|
Hand 1 with the TAgs, opening up there game I want them to think I have a good hand so they get out of the way. Also with them opening up there game and with the LPs I probably do have the best hand.
If I have the best hand, I have the most pot equity, a raise here is value + I'm hoping to fold the Buttons + Blinds.
Hand 2 - Call as I'll need a set to win but I don't think a raise to far either. In fact I think you could probably raise a set for value pre-flop as you will hit one 1:8 times and in this game you will probably have 10 to the flop.
|
|
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Hand 1: You probably lose more than your fair share here, but your raise does lots of interesting things for you.
o You build a big pot, forcing weak/aware players to play out pairish hands drawing thin or dead to your set. More than making up value lost pre-flop via additional post-flop calls. It also attracts bluffs and overplays.
o Your raise makes it more likely the button folds.
o Passive/tricky players will often try to check/raise the pre-flop raiser allowing you to take a free turn when you miss your set.
o Fail that, you might have implied pot odds to call 1 SB looking to spike a set on the turn.
o If the flop is so blank (666) that you think your hand is good, reverse-implied odds are less of a concern because of the size of the pot relative to post-flop action. Also, the pre-flop aggression allows you to represent a stronger hand, when you do decide to play without a set.
o It jacks up your PRF% for those using Poker Tracker, forcing them to play out medium-strong hands against your raises.
Overall, you're not giving up much just flat calling and it's certainly a lower variance play.
In the second hand, little of that reasoning applies. They'll give you action on your set with junk anyway and are more likely to limp/re-raise any two cards just because big pots are fun.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
