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Let's talk about middle set baby, let's talk about you &

  
 
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Fnord
Old 05-29-2007, 03:48 PM     Post subject: Let's talk about middle set baby, let's talk about you & #1 (permalink)  
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I've built my stack mostly via highway robbery.

My opponents are mostly passive, see a fair number of flops but then play very weak/tight. This guy is no exception and he dosn't look like a regular.

PokerStars Game #10163278756: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/05/29 - 08:21:12 (ET)
Table 'Interamnia II' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: opontios ($121.80 in chips)
Seat 2: Fnord ($226.35 in chips)
Seat 3: kpnuts ($48.95 in chips)
Seat 5: Dr.72 ($107.70 in chips)
Seat 6: akdlejtmdn ($17 in chips)
Seat 7: getliquid1 ($145.60 in chips)
Seat 8: Bridgy23 ($61.35 in chips)
Seat 9: Retrotilt ($63.15 in chips)
kpnuts: posts small blind $0.50
Dr.72: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Fnord [4h Td Qs Th]
akdlejtmdn: folds
getliquid1: calls $1
Bridgy23: folds
Retrotilt: calls $1
opontios: calls $1
Fnord: calls $1
kpnuts: calls $0.50
Dr.72: checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc 6s Kc]
kpnuts: checks
Dr.72: checks
getliquid1: bets $5.70
Retrotilt: folds
opontios: calls $5.70
Fnord: calls $5.70
kpnuts: folds
Dr.72: folds
*** TURN *** [Tc 6s Kc] [5s]
getliquid1: bets $22
opontios: folds
Fnord: raises $66 to $88
getliquid1: raises $50.90 to $138.90 and is all-in
Fnord: calls $50.90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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swiggidy
Old 05-29-2007, 04:17 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 I'm still at 25PL, but I'm starting to notice players only betting with very strong hands (i.e. I see KK here a lot).

I like flop call because there are a lot of turns we don't like.

Do 100PL players have 66 or overplay KT? If so I like turn.

If we're worried about KK I would think call turn and push a club river if checked too (or faced with a super weak bet).
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
 
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zenbitz
Old 05-29-2007, 07:15 PM #3 (permalink)  
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My guess is he has KT+NFD, or possibly some ridiculous 22 out draw (spades, clubs, oesd). Of course KK plays exactly like this.

Kind of a tough hand. Call on flop seems to be std. Turn you now have to raise because of flush draws, which just means you stack off to KK.

Oh, and fold pre flop, obv. Unless villian here shows up with KT no f/d in which case well played, sir.
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swiggidy
Old 05-29-2007, 09:11 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 at 25PL I very rarely see the weak passives push strong draws
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-29-2007, 09:28 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
at 25PL I very rarely see the weak passives push strong draws
Lol, at 25PLO I get berated by the table for pushing my 20+ out draws and "sucking out" on bottom two.

2 days ago I pushed the NFD+ a wrap and the guy called with bottom two and his hand held (actually he sucked out as I was a fav). He berated me in chat for like 10 minutes on going all-in with just a draw. I laughed my ass off and stacked him twice in the next 10 hands. They just don't get it and that's great for us.
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Fnord
Old 05-29-2007, 09:41 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbitz
Oh, and fold pre flop, obv.
I have a pair of Tens and the button...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-29-2007, 09:49 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenbitz
Oh, and fold pre flop, obv.
I have a pair of Tens and the button...
This isn't Texas Hold'em this is Omaha. You have at best 1 solid hold'em hand out of a possible 6.

I call PF as well with the button but you're saying "I have a pair of Tens" like that means something.
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Fnord
Old 05-29-2007, 09:57 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
This isn't Texas Hold'em this is Omaha. You have at best 1 solid hold'em hand out of a possible 6.

I call PF as well with the button but you're saying "I have a pair of Tens" like that means something.
The Queen works with my Tens a bit. The 4h is a dangler.

I am VERY loose on the button because position is so powerful in these games. TT has enough over-full value to gamble. Flawed thinking?

Also, I'd much rather call here than complete the SB with this hand because the button is so huge. It's going to help me make tight laydowns for little/no money and get maxium value when I hit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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zenbitz
Old 05-29-2007, 10:08 PM #9 (permalink)  
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It's really the ass-end of barely playable on the button. Also 3 already have limped, and blinds will call, so implied odds are good if you hit a T....but clearly you cannot get away from middle set so bad!

I agree this is way better on BU than SB. I was kind of tongue in cheek when I said "fold pre flop" because I know you know the hand sucks...
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bigspenda73
Old 05-29-2007, 10:21 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 BTW, I wait until a safe turn card comes to commit myself to this pot.

Im more than ready to fold or look to be getting the right odds to fill up if the turn is a nasty card.

If the turn was even safer, like I might even just call the turn hoping villain does have a set where I can raise the river on a scare card/blank and take the pot away from KK/get full value from bottom set.

I'm pretty passive with the nuts until the turn. I've freerolled a few people lately and have had it done to me also and I don't like the feeling. Therefore, Im starting to play my nut/near nut hands much slower and letting the board develop before getting all my money in the middle. At my level ($25 or $50PLO) I can do way better than flip every pot for the dead money, it's a small edge and one that really starts amping up the variance moreso than I would like.
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Fnord
Old 05-29-2007, 10:23 PM #11 (permalink)  
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One of my concerns here is that the money is too deep for my line. 75 blinds deep, this is really routine.

How often am I seeing KKxx here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-29-2007, 10:28 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 hard to tell on the turn

Villain could easily but both players on a draw and be slamming the pot button with bottom set.
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swiggidy
Old 05-29-2007, 10:37 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
How often am I seeing KKxx here?
I would guess 50%
(\__/)
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(")_(")
 
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Fnord
Old 05-29-2007, 10:46 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
I would guess 50%
Anyone want to dispute this?

If half his range is KKxx, then I fucked this up pretty big time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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KoRnholio
Old 05-30-2007, 01:55 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
I would guess 50%
Anyone want to dispute this?

If half his range is KKxx, then I fucked this up pretty big time.
Once he pushes over top of our raise on the turn it is KK probably 70%+ of the time. But obviously we don't get to that bridge until later.

Given the action at a passive/weak-tight table, you will get shown the nuts a lot when they keep leading strong like on the turn that into multiple callers. Most of the nitty/weak tighties in my games will very rarely make a big bet on the turn with a great draw once they are called on the flop.

Still, if we just call on the turn, literally any card that doesn't boat us up makes a possible better hand/bluffing opportunity for the villain. But if the villain is quite predictable and will check any scare card if he has 66, KK or KT, sometimes I will bet a small amount that all 3 of those hands will usually pay off. So in a way the scare cards can actually help us.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-30-2007, 01:58 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 Good lord it could be 2 flush draws with a gutshot or some crazy shit like that.

He can easily be overplaying 66 on this drawy board, easily. 50% of the time? meh. But KT is in his range and who knows if he can go off with K6 like this.

Whatever it is Im not sure we can fold.
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salsa4ever
Old 05-30-2007, 03:02 AM #17 (permalink)  
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i'd fold preflop too but that's hardly going to be a big shift in EV.

I don't think getting stacked with this hand is very bad. He could have 2 pair or a bottom set or a big draw.

If I had to put him on a range I'll say 40% KK 30% 66 20% 14+outs and 10% garbage like 2 pair or bare flush draw.

More people will play KKxx than 66xx though, also.

How about calling the turn and hope opp will bluff a lot of rivers and get more value from shit like 66xx? In a vacuum that's probably my line. I'd take your line if I felt villain was someone who would push a good draw.
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gingerwizard
Old 05-30-2007, 11:01 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 A weak/tight or weak/passive player suddenly likes his hand enough to lead into 4 players here. That worries me and it should worry anyone. Sure if villain has been relatively active or shown a lot of fast played draws or mediocre holdings (bottom sets 2pairs) then this hand may be feltable.

If you have KK I like the way you played this. Here flat calling seems more palatable, why build a big pot with such a vunerable non-nut hand 3 way?

A call enables you to find out on the river how much he likes his hand without commiting to the pot. (Something that should be considered good against a weak passive). Plus you may be able to push him off top set if one of the draws comes in.
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