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Let's go over some very basic preflop stuff

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wufwugy

03-13-2008, 08:54 AM Post subject: Let's go over some very basic preflop stuff

#1 (permalink)

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Okay so I have background in NLHE so this will be easy. I understand position and isolation and all that jazz, but am still very weak when it comes to hand strength so I'd like to focus on that mostly. I'll go over a list of questions though. The first few aren't super important; just would like to put them out there. What I'm really looking for are hole card evaluations.

1. Position. I've heard that position in PLO is substantially more important than in NLHE. True? And how come? And how does this change, if at all, our actions? For example: Are we looking to play more passively IP and aggro OOP? That's how it is in NLHE, but moreso in PLO? Does this give us a gigantic edge when we have position on the pfr so we want to be coldcalling a lot, and likewise do we wanna surrender our blinds more often than in NLHE? What are our standards when responding to a pfr?

2. 3betting/responding to 4bets. I really have no clue what we should be 3betting. Could be anything from HU ranges in NLHE to fullring ranges, I just dunno. I imagine we should only be 3betting AAxx hands since they're the only ones we don't mind getting 4bet by, but I could be way off. This is assuming generally fishy small stakes games.

What are we looking to do when we are 3bet? Are we getting enough odds to call almost always for 100bb?

3. Blinds. How important is stealing/defending compared to NLHE?

And now most importantly...

Here are a bunch of hands. Please list which ones and how you'll play them when opening or isolating from UTG and CO, how you'll play them OTB from a MP or whatever raise, and how you'll play them from an LP raise when folded to your BB. Assuming six-handed table. Also please provide how strong or weak you'll need each hand type to be to do or not do something. For example: If 4455 is too weak to play UTG but 6677 is strong enough to limp while 8899 is strong enough to raise please say so.

4455
Ah9h86
JT76
JhTh7c6c
AQ88
5432
5h4h3c2c
KhJh6c4c
AKQhTh

If you would like to add some other types you think would help enlighten please please do so. I'm gonna learn this game real good so all help is welcome.

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twosevoff

03-13-2008, 06:32 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 526

Position is overrated in PLO imo. Of course it's still very important and you'll want to loosen up your range on the CO and button, but I don't think it's as criticial as in nlhe.

I would 3bet virtually any AAxx except the especially weak ones, as well as strong hands like 4-straights 4567+ with single or double suitedness, double suited 1 gappers 4678+, strong double paired hands like TT99 single or double suited, and other premium hands such as double suited or otherwise very coordinated kings, and hands like TJJQ doublesuited. I would call a 4 bet with my entire 3betting range, with the possible exception of a pair plus an A when I'm positive the other guy has AAxx. That's a pretty good rule for calling 3bets too--most any hand good enough to open is good enough to call a 3bet with unless it's a pair with an ace. And of course you shove over a 4bet when you have AAxx yourself.

Blind stealing and defense is much less important than in NLHE.

4455: I'd open it from any position except the blinds and call a raise with it from any position. It's a little marginal to open with in EP or call in the blinds without suitedness though. Sometimes I would reraise a player who is reraising a lot of hands with it when they open the button and I'm in the blinds. The only double paired hands I wouldn't be playing most always are 22xx and 33xx where xx<TT

Ah9h86: I'd open it from any positon except the blinds and call a raise with it from any position. Same goes for pretty much any suited ace with connectedness

JT76: I'd pitch it pretty much all the time. Occasionally I might open raise the button or sb against tight blinds.

JT76ds: I'd open it from the CO and button and sb and fold it from everywhere else.

AQ88: I'd open it from the CO, button, and sb, and fold it from everywhere else. If it was suited to the ace however I'd play it from anywhere.

5432: Fold it from everywhere

5432ds: Open or limp behind in CO, button, and sb.

KJ64ds: Open from button, sb, and possibly cutoff. Fold from everywhere else

swiggidy

03-13-2008, 11:33 PM

#3 (permalink)

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1) I notice position the most with mediocre hands. Like 2 pair first to act on a dry flop, I'm checking and folding if there's too much action. With position you can call, see the turn and decide what to do. This assumes non-aggressive tables. Singleton OESD, non NFD, etc.

I've noticed recently that relative position affects some hands, especially if pfr cbets a lot. But that's poker in general.

2) I've only just started 3betting. You need to 3bet more than AAxx or nothing. If I know you only 3bet with AA I can call with any 2, and if I like the flop put you in. Am I bluffing, top 2, set, wrap, you have no idea.

I'm a little torn here. Yesterday I was at a super calling station table, raise, 3bet would get 3-4 cold callers. So I was 3betting hands like A789 with suited A because they play awesome multiway. If 3bets isolate I'm less inclined to raise those, not sure if that's good thinking or not. Rundown hands, 789T I would 3bet for isolation so you win some hands that would loose multiway. Generally I want 2 features to the hand out of: pair for set, Axs, 3 connected or 4 with one gap. When looking for a set I rate them like pairs pre in HE, it starts to get sketchy around 99-TT.

If 3bets isolate and the prf is bad I'll raise 3 broadway type hands and start considering Kxs, maybe even Qxs as good.

3)
4455 - pretty trashy, probably fold with position facing one raise
Ah9h86 - real solid, with the gap I would call and pay post, especially if that call entices more villains
JT76 - meh, I'll call one raise with position if villains not super aggressive, if it's going 4 way to the flop I'll probably fold. Almost no nut draws here.
JhTh7c6c - doesn't help much, may 3bet this if I can isolate against a worse player
AQ88 - Make the A suited and I'll happily call, the 88 ok, with initiative I'd be happy, if the flop is K8x or something don't go crazy if you're deep multiway. This is a situation where starting with 60-80bb helps, then fucking stack off and if there's a KK, whatev.
5432 - I play against very passive very bad villains. 4567 would be the lowest hand that might play well multiway.
5h4h3c2c - doesn't help at all
KhJh6c4c - bleh, would steal with this hand if folded to me in button, likely lay it down if blinds 3bet
AKQhTh - Would 3bet this with position to isolate

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

swiggidy

03-14-2008, 12:18 AM

#4 (permalink)

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I forgot about the big xxyy hands. Although you don't see them very often.

Also, I hate playing limped pots, although I think this would be less common for you. If people don't fold, min-raise from UTG, UTG+1, raise 3bb from CO/BTN, irregardless of the number of limpers. Build that pot so your flop bet means something at least. I've only had to deal with one or two cronic limp/3betters, but you'll still have odds to call most of the time since you're not super bloating the pot.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

salsa4ever

03-14-2008, 04:20 AM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 1,073

hi wufugy.

good to see some new omaha blood. I'm in a transfer terminal in Singapore, so I'll reply when I'm back in Australia. Saying hi to everyone while I'm here

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?

wufwugy

03-14-2008, 07:35 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

hi wufugy.

good to see some new omaha blood. I'm in a transfer terminal in Singapore, so I'll reply when I'm back in Australia. Saying hi to everyone while I'm here

Yo salsa5eva

I'm hoping to move much if not all of my play to PLO, but since it looks like I'm gonna be grinding a bunch of NLHE for a time I may not be putting nearly as much time into learning PLO in the near future. We'll see.

wufwugy

03-14-2008, 07:36 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Also, I bet stats are not nearly as valuable in PLO as NLHE, but what is the lowest vpip I should have? Cuz I'm like super nitty right now. Maybe like 17 vpip. Doesn't look right.

salsa4ever

03-14-2008, 11:59 AM

#8 (permalink)

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I'm usually at 21/11 or so.

swiggidy

03-14-2008, 07:39 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

I'm usually at 21/11 or so.

Is that PLO, not PLO8?

I'm running 35/25, at lower stakes.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

salsa4ever

03-15-2008, 07:26 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Melbourne

Posts: 1,073

i'm a little tighter in PLO8 but taking my PLO only i'm never going much past 23VPIP in any 2000 hand session. I'm playing full ring

wufwugy

03-20-2008, 03:21 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Thanks guys. I'm doing a good amount of research on pf stuff so I should get this down pretty soon. And it looks like I'll be putting NLHE on hold (or in the dumpster) so I'll be into PLO deep (hopefully).

wufwugy

03-20-2008, 10:43 PM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 1,660

lol I just played a short session using my interpretation of fslexcduck's preflop strategies and ran at 10/6 in 6max.

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Let's go over some very basic preflop stuff

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