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MacsenWledig
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09-06-2006, 01:31 AM
Post subject: Let's discuss the increase in rock gardens.
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Medina, OH
Posts: 15
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I just started playing money tables in the past day or so at PP, and noticed that pretty much all of the .05/.10 limit tables were very tight/passive. I thought this was odd, since most of what I've been reading here and other places seemed to indicate that I could expect loose/aggresive tables at low stakes. Wondering what was up, I started scanning forums here and at 2+2 and noticed some posts on this very subject. The common thread between them was that the shift towards rock style play at low limits is pretty recent, and seemed to be causing some problems for some players (it sure as hell made my first night at real money tables frustrating). Does anyone have any guesses as to why this is happening? Is it likely to be a temporary trend, or does it signal an indefinite shift in the way the game is played, similar to what some people feel happened after the publishing of Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players? I would like to hear various opinions on the subject, in particular from some of the members who have had a good range of calendar time at the tables. To open the discussion, I pose a question:
Do you think the recent television broadcasts of the WSOP have anything to do with it?
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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i think the bonuses have a lot to do with the "tightening" of tables.
the more aggressive a site is w/ it's bonuses, the more i notice the "rocks."
but i do agree, lately, it's been MUCH worse. i used to love the cryptologic network (my best winning site for 6+ months), but lately it has become my biggest loser. so, i left. i doubt there's a coincidence that they changed their reloads and "raked hand" requirements over the past couple months. 
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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*disclaimer* i play NL, but i like this topic..
fwiw, i seem to do better at a rock garden than a crazy table..
there is more variance obviously at a crazy table.. however i get a lot more respect from thinking/rocky players and thus i reraise more and raise all pps vs them.. at a loose table these are risky plays as the bad/loose players will call down with mid pair.. unbluffable.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
i think the bonuses have a lot to do with the "tightening" of tables.
the more aggressive a site is w/ it's bonuses, the more i notice the "rocks."
but i do agree, lately, it's been MUCH worse. i used to love the CryptoLogic network (my best winning site for 6+ months), but lately it has become my biggest loser. so, i left. i doubt there's a coincidence that they changed their reloads and "raked hand" requirements over the past couple months.
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I agree. Empire used to be pleasantly soft, but now seems dominated by the same 17/9 gang playing 4,5 or 6 tables. Whether that's bonus related or not, I'm not sure, but since I noticed this particularly during a recent reload bonus period, it may be. Makes me think that I might want to head over to the rake-free, bonus free site, WPEX.
It does seems to be worse lately. It's easy now to learn how not to be awful, which is where most of our profit comes from, and the real-time heads-up display stuff like PokerAce HUD makes it easy to multitable by the numbers.
Oh--and that may be why on occasion I'll sit at a table, start raising, and watch too many people mysteriously fold--if you're a TAG, the combination of PokerTracker and HUD used by other players can thin your profits.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Isn't WPEX filled with 2+2ers?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Every table has a weakness. Make a tight table fold too much.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by outphase
Isn't WPEX filled with 2+2ers?
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Yes, the players on that site are on average way better than any other site I have played at. I found it to not really be worth it even with the no rake thing.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nehmer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by outphase
Isn't WPEX filled with 2+2ers?
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Yes, the players on that site are on average way better than any other site I have played at. I found it to not really be worth it even with the no rake thing. |
It depends, I do well there on weekend days when the bad european players (afternoon EST is prime time in europe with the time change) are playing while they are gambling on soccer. Play during sporting events. You don't have to be there very long to know who the regulars are.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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MacsenWledig
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Medina, OH
Posts: 15
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What I want to know, though, are the following:
1) The reasons people feel that this shift happened.
2) How long do you think it will last?
I think this could be an interesting investigation of how new trends such as software aids and the internet change how poker evolves.
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Nehmer
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 666
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MacsenWledig
What I want to know, though, are the following:
1) The reasons people feel that this shift happened.
2) How long do you think it will last?
I think this could be an interesting investigation of how new trends such as software aids and the internet change how poker evolves.
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The shift has been happening for quite a while and will continue to happen. There was a big explosion of poker popularity a few years ago which brought a lot of new players who didn't know what they were doing to the game. These players have been doing one of 3 things for the most part. Reading books/internet forums/etc, and getting better at poker. Losing all the money they are willing to at poker. Losing interest in poker and quitting. The players that have gotten better tend to now be playing more tables at a time than they were when they weren't very good. This means that there is a much higher percentage of good players at the various tables than there were a few years back(or even few months back). This shift will continue for a while more, because the fish are still going to be learning or quitting at a faster rate than new fish are showing up.
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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hopefully ESPN will start showing the WSOP on TV, I'm hoping that will bring in a big gush of fresh fish.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Rondavu
Every table has a weakness. Make a tight table fold too much.
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I agree with this but I really think this is a leak of mine.
I tend to think I am a good enough player that I can adapt to any other player at the table and should over the long-term always do a little better than breaking even.
But I think the better move is just leaving the table and finding one where you don't have to "make a tight table fold too much."
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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seems everywhere we move, there is the same problem lately, though.
but, there will always be fish. we just may not find 3-4 per table as often.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
What I want to know, though, are the following:
1) The reasons people feel that this shift happened.
2) How long do you think it will last?
I think this could be an interesting investigation of how new trends such as software aids and the internet change how poker evolves.
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1) As I mentioned, it's easy now not to be a terrible player, and it's also not terribly hard to become a solid player. The good books are easy to find, the game is easy to codify (hold 'em is now well understand--there are no real strategic mysteries left) to the point where anyone who's not literally an imbecile can become a not-awful player; there's software to hold your hand while you play, software that lets average players become above average players, and software to let solid players play solidly at up to nine tables at a time. Anyone can play with a printout of starting hands by their computer and avoid most obvious mistakes...
2) Indefinitely. In five years there will be realtime software capable of beating all but the very best players in limit. There may be a small influx of fish from time to time, but full ring is basically dead. It won't get significantly better.
That's why I'm (finally) switching to 6-max (and no limit). 6-max is a little less well understood than full ring. My guess is it's where full ring was in 2003 or 2004 or so. In another year someone will come out with a book on it, that'll cut down the number of fish, the software will get better too, and we'll be looking for another variation of hold'em or poker in which to get our edge back.
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TerryToma
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 823
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Are you overestimating the number of people that read books?
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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it's not that fish understand the game better at full ring and don't at 6max, it's that 6max is a bigger ACTION game and tey want to gamb00l it up and play as many hands as possible!!111!!1
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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the comment about software getting better and better does scare me a bit.
however, i dont agree that full ring is a "dying game." sure, it is less frequent right now, but that is because the poker sites are pushing 6-max for the action/rake. if people werent so "follow the leader," full ring would still be out there with a lot of frequency. its supply and demand.
the fish will lose their money faster in 6 max than FR, just like NL vs. Limit; therefore, they will come back to FR Limit games. it will just take some time, maybe years. the same "cycle" exists in everything from the stock market to real estate. the "fish" chase the hot game/market and get burned everytime. then, they eventually come back to where they "perceive" themselves as having the best shot at delaying the loss of money.
where was NL before tv just 5 years ago? ... IT was considered the "dead" game. couldnt find it spread anywhere at anytime.
my how things (will) change!
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
the fish will lose their money faster in 6 max than FR, just like NL vs. Limit; therefore, they will come back to FR Limit games.
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More likely they'll just quit.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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Are you overestimating the number of people that read books?
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I usually do...
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Yeah, you just need to find the times when the fish play
but lately I just said screw it, I'd rather play and get my bonus done and now I'm barely winning :/
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arkitekton
2) Indefinitely. In five years there will be realtime software capable of beating all but the very best players in limit.
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not even.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by arkitekton
2) Indefinitely. In five years there will be realtime software capable of beating all but the very best players in limit.
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not even. |
his definition of "the very best" must be different than ours
it must be "those who read SSH"
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