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a lesson in counterfeits (& domination)

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|~|ypermegachi

12-07-2004, 04:02 AM Post subject: a lesson in counterfeits (& domination)

#1 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

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sorry, hand history not converting it properly...

6 handed 1/2

PREFLOP:
Hero is button with A

UTG folds
UTG+1 calls
CO folds
Hero raises (position and value raise)
SB reraises
BB caps
UTG+1 calls
Hero calls (almost 10:1 for this call)

FLOP: 8BB
A

SB bets
BB raises
UTG+1 folds
Hero reraises
SB caps
BB calls
Hero calls

TURN: 14BB
8

SB bets
BB raises
Hero calls (ok i'm afraid of AA right now)
SB calls

RIVER: 20BB
8

man mother f*cking the worse possible card just fell.
SB checks
BB bets
Hero calls (i probably could have folded here and save 2 bucks...20:1 for my call...maybe i could win this more than 5% of the time...)
SB calls

guess what they had.

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Fnord

12-07-2004, 04:05 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Pre-flop is close when it's 2 back to you (without a read.)

Turn is interesting too. Not bad...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Gatlin Dan

12-07-2004, 05:03 AM

#3 (permalink)

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It would be tough for me to call pre flop even getting almost ten to one. A6 suited is not a good enough hand for me to call two cold, even if I am on the button and the pot odds are good. The fact whether or not you should have called preflop is definitely debatable. Once you see the flop, the post flop play was solid. The BB played overly aggressive in thinking his A with an 8 kicker was probably going to be at the end of the hand which caused a misread on your part, thinking he may have had AA. He happened to pair his kicker and got lucky on the turn. and even more lucky by the river. Given his action and the cards, I still would have called him down. You can't fold in that large of a pot for one bet unless you are 100 percent sure you are beat.

|~|ypermegachi

12-07-2004, 05:14 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatlin Dan

given their aggression on the flop, they don't have A8. no one is dumb enough to bet, reraise, and cap with A8 on the flop against 2 other opponents capping it with you.

i called preflop for the implied odds, not because it's a good hand.

Fnord

12-07-2004, 05:14 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Fold this one pre-flop? What's the difference between ATs and A6s if you know you're dominated?

Both opponents are rocks, table is playing weak/tight.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with A

, T

.
UTG folds, Fnord raises, UTG+2 3-bets, MP1 folds, MP2 caps, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Fnord calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) Q

, 8

(3 players)
Fnord checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, Fnord folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 5

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets, MP2 raises, UTG+2 calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 3

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets, MP2 raises, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+2 has Ks Kh (flush, king high).
MP2 has Qc Qd (full house, queens full of eights).
Outcome: MP2 wins 15.75 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

zenbitz

12-07-2004, 05:39 AM

#6 (permalink)

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I think it's a fine call at 10:1 odds
Domination is irrelevant, you are playing for the nut crub frush. Of course, when you hit 2 pair, you can get trapped.

Just because it's been a while since you posted this with no answer - here is my "freakshow" guess - they both had A2.

|~|ypermegachi

12-07-2004, 05:43 AM

#7 (permalink)

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fine here's some hints

i was dominated preflop.
then it became reverse dominated on the flop
and then the river reverse reverse dominated

Fnord

12-07-2004, 05:47 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zenbitz

I think it's a fine call at 10:1 odds
Domination is irrelevant, you are playing for the nut crub frush. Of course, when you hit 2 pair, you can get trapped.

He should be playing out more than just the crub frush in that spot.

I think the most interesting street here is the turn...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

12-07-2004, 05:50 AM

#9 (permalink)

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A7o both?

EDIT: I keep changing my mind hehe

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steviebrutal

12-07-2004, 06:29 AM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 96

Im assuming ace-rag, but higher than yours (according to the title

). A9o seems appropriate (not as a good decision, mind you).

Fnord

12-07-2004, 06:32 AM

#11 (permalink)

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No one wants to discuss the merits of calling vs raising the turn?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Gatlin Dan

12-07-2004, 06:39 AM

#12 (permalink)

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assuming no one is dumb enough to cap the betting with a8 is giving your opponents too much credit at a 1/2 table. One of them could have also been calling due to the implied odds. Was the pot split by the bb and sb? Assuming no one will reraise and cap with A8. you had to be left with aces and eights with a six kicker. They could have had anything from AK to A9. I would guess a9 because that is the only thing that would have made me furious enough to share this story of horror. Anything else I would have likely forgotten over the course of the sesssion.

|~|ypermegachi

12-07-2004, 06:43 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

No one wants to discuss the merits of calling vs raising the turn?

looking back at what they had, i'd definitely 3 bet the turn because i had them beat. but of course i didn't have this information at the time. these players were loose 50% VPIP players, so i really didn't know what to expect. but given so much raising preflop and flop, my read was someone had AA.

well...i was wrong...this was what they had...

SB A

BB A

Gatlin Dan

12-07-2004, 06:49 AM

#14 (permalink)

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fnord, given the aggressive betting, it would be hard to say if anyone would have folded on the turn after hero reraises especially since both already have turn bets in the pot. I don't know if it would have been enough to induce a check on the river from other players. Even if it did and hero was first into the pot on the river, they might put him on eight full of A's. Wouldn't it be likely they would call anyway due to the size of the pot?
Am I anywhere close to what you were thinking about the turn?

ChezJ

12-07-2004, 07:02 PM

#15 (permalink)

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AK and AQ cannot fold the turn, even if they know for a fact that you flopped 2 pr. they each have 6 outs to beat you, 3 K's/Q's and 3 8's. they only need 7:1 to call, but the pot is laying 14:1 at the beginning of the round, 19:1 after you call the raise. how can they fold?

ChezJ

LockLow34

12-07-2004, 07:57 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Ashburn, VA

Posts: 266

Sometimes you KNOW you should fold preflop...

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q

, A

.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO 3-bets, Hero folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 caps, MP2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (11.40 SB) 6

, 6

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets, CO calls.

Turn: (6.70 BB) A

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets, CO calls.

River: (8.70 BB) T

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 10.70 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+2 has Ac Kh (two pair, aces and sixes).
CO has Jd Jh (two pair, jacks and sixes).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 10.70 BB.

"How deep is the money?" - Fnord

zenbitz

12-07-2004, 07:59 PM

#17 (permalink)

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I think you raise the turn - maybe of of them folds, which makes your hand much better. Might also defer to you on the river, and you could check that counterfiet card.

|~|ypermegachi

12-07-2004, 08:01 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zenbitz

I think you raise the turn - maybe of of them folds, which makes your hand much better. Might also defer to you on the river, and you could check that counterfiet card.

i think the real question about this hand is if the turn raise would be enough to get them to check to me on the river. i wouldn't be surprised if it gets capped back to me on the turn.

Fnord

12-07-2004, 08:04 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zenbitz

I think you raise the turn - maybe of of them folds, which makes your hand much better. Might also defer to you on the river, and you could check that counterfiet card.

Just to provoke thought...

How many hands have more than 6 outs? If the other guy is drawing really thin, would you rather have the over-call? What are the chances you have the best hand here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

12-07-2004, 08:05 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

i think the real question about this hand is if the turn raise would be enough to get them to check to me on the river. i wouldn't be surprised if it gets capped back to me on the turn.

There are only 3, maybe 7 unseen cards in the deck that would make me check my 2 pair on the river with 2 possible callers. You just happened to hit one of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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a lesson in counterfeits (& domination)

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