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07-30-2005, 04:55 AM Post subject: Learning limit

#1 (permalink)

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I am a no-limit tourney player since that's what I've been playing all the time. I signed up to powerplayer and got free 10 dollars. So I thought the best way to build my bankroll is to play limit because I won't risk nearly as much in every hand. I played four hours so far... I'm up to 30 dollars!!

I guess I got a little lucky, but I learned the key differences between small LHE cash games and NL tournaments:

1. When someone RAISES a bet after the flop they usually have an unusually strong hand like a flush or a straight. This is not true in tournaments where short stacks flop top pair and go with it or aggressive players attempt a raise steal.
2. You can't make the blinds fold. Ever. Less true in higher limits, but in 15/30 cent limit hold'em this is almost always true.
3. Your implied odds are crap.
4. Being aggressive doesn't pay off at all. On the other side, calling with marginal holdings also doesn't pay because no one bluffs. I know, I called with KK on a board with four to the straight and got called a retard... after that I stopped calling when I suspected I was beat.
5. Slow playing is sometimes MORE necessary since you're playing more tight and bluffing less.

Hmm if I can make 5 dollars an hour playing limit consistently (when I'm only supposed to make 30 cents an hour on those limits) I'd be pretty happy

Any more tips for switching from NLHE tournaments to limit cash games?

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pokerfanatic

07-30-2005, 05:49 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Yea buy small Stakes Hold'em read it and understand limit concepts...

“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord

|~|ypermegachi

07-30-2005, 04:20 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

1) this is wrong. this raise with anything.
2) people at 15/30 definitely don't routinely fold their blinds. only small stakes is where you'll see people fold.
3) comparatively speaking.
4) you seem to be neglecting the pot size
5) slow playing is almost 90% of the time the wrong thing to do in limit.

read low limit by lee jones, and then get ssh by miller

outphase

07-30-2005, 04:27 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

1. There are some players who only raise with the winner on the turn/river, but some < many.
2. Blind defense kicks in at 3/6 and higher from where i've noticed. I defend in 2/4 time to time.
3. Pfft, implied odds don't mean the whole stack in limit, it means how much more you can extract.
4. Being passive is ok? Make your fish pay for their cards.
5. How are slowplaying and tight related? If you're playing tight, push your hand hard. Make them pay! Sure people draw out in limit a little more, but if you didn't make them pay, you lose the right to complain.

I only read SSH by Ed Miller, but it's a godsend to a low limit game. Standard tight/aggressive is how you should be in limit. Don't bluff unless you know your opponent is bluffable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.

Gatlin Dan

07-30-2005, 04:34 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Wild Bill's Backyard

Posts: 504

The most intelligent person in the world can't get the differences between NL MTT and LHE Rings in four hours. There is just way too much difference. They are entirely different games played in an entirely different way. The ONLY things that are similar is the fashion in how the cards are dealt and the table in which it is played on. Other than that, they require completely different skills and strategies. To really notice all the important differences is going to take a long long time. SSH will help you cut down on the time it takes to learn those differences (assuming you are well-educated in playing NL). There is a big learning curve switching from not LHE to NLHE, but also going tourney to cash games, or the other way around.

Jumping from one game and format to a completely different game and format can be very expensive without the proper preparation.

You must know, that LHE is a very streaky game. If you are playing .5/.10 limit (that's where you should be with 30 dollars) it is not unreasonable to think you could see 30 dollars get ate up with a bad run of cards. It's probably not going to happen at small levels like this because of all the mistakes your opponents make, but it is not unheard of to take a -300 BB swing.

"A lot of fortunes are made on what you don't play."--"Miami" John Cernuto

07-31-2005, 09:06 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Thanks for your comments. I noticed that people BET with crap hands after the flop but almost NEVER raise unless they have a really strong hand. Notice the difference between betting and raising. Unless they are 99% sure they have the best hand (straight or flush) they will just call

As far as blind defense, that's stupid to do with no hand. The raiser has you beat, and you can only call if you're getting great implied odds. AND THEN, YOU STILL HAVE CRAP POSITION.
As far as aggression goes, meh, you won't make everyone fold. Someone will always call you down.

What I meant by slow-playing I only meant for the nuts. In tournaments people sometimes call you down when you have the nuts, so slow playing is more necessary for when you ahve the nuts

that's probably a cash game difference because no one is getting desperate on a short stack

short stacks in tourneys are the perfect targets to hit on a flop against

|~|ypermegachi

07-31-2005, 11:26 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

Quote:

I noticed that people BET with crap hands after the flop but almost NEVER raise unless they have a really strong hand.

you haven't played enough.

Quote:

The raiser has you beat, and you can only call if you're getting great implied odds.

you haven't played enough.

Quote:

As far as aggression goes, meh, you won't make everyone fold. Someone will always call you down.

that's a good thing. if you can make them fold due to aggression you should move to another table where you have a bigger edge.

Quote:

What I meant by slow-playing I only meant for the nuts.

usually you'll just miss out on bets when you slow play.

07-31-2005, 11:38 PM

#8 (permalink)

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yeah ok, I have AQ
the flop comes AAQ rainbow
how do I NOT slow play that? NOBODY has a piece of it, I know because I already see five out eight cards that someone else could hold
the only person that would pay me off is someone with two queens

what are the chances of someone having two queens given that flop? No longer just 1/221 since you know you see one queen on the flop and one in your hand

the chances of someone having two queens in that spot is 1/1326
and when it's checked to me... umm I'm going to check too
I PRAY THAT SOMEONE CATCHES THE NEXT CARD
there is no way even a complete noob would call with absolutely nothing and no draw on that flop

ok, sure, KJ MAY pay me off. But why risk scaring out customers when the turn may bring a ten? The guy with KJ might bet and then reraise my raise!
Or I could just make everyone fold holding the nuts.

Hell, I'll wait for someone to make a hand until the river! Maybe some pair will math and make a worse full house...
I've had hands where I get three of a kind, bet and everyone folds

three of a kind is not an invincible hand, but at least I'd like to check raise and get that extra bet out of getting a decent hand

|~|ypermegachi

08-01-2005, 02:52 AM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

you missed the part where i said USUALLY. of course there are exceptions like the example you listed.

but if you have JJ on a AJ8 flop and you're slowplaying that you are missing out on bets.

moiraine57

08-01-2005, 03:33 AM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 112

Quote:

I noticed that people BET with crap hands after the flop but almost NEVER raise unless they have a really strong hand.
you haven't played enough.

Uhm, maybe your experience is different than mine, but talking strictly small stakes, I would say this is 80% true. By small stakes I am talking .5/1 and below.

At higher stakes, this isn't as true, but I notice the the OP was strictly talking about lower stakes.

Quote:

The raiser has you beat, and you can only call if you're getting great implied odds.
you haven't played enough.

Quote:

As far as aggression goes, meh, you won't make everyone fold. Someone will always call you down.
that's a good thing. if you can make them fold due to aggression you should move to another table where you have a bigger edge.

True, but you don't want an entire table full of calling station fish either. A few fish, and a few tighties make a good table. You don't want all the fish schooling to suck you out on your premium hands. That makes for bad variance, especially when someone is only trying to clear a bonus. Don't you think?

Quote:

What I meant by slow-playing I only meant for the nuts.
usually you'll just miss out on bets when you slow play.

Agreed, but isn't is sometimes good to smooth call on the lower betting rounds and then raise on the higher betting rounds? You can usually get the bluffer/mediocre hand to fire again on the turn, whereas if you raise on the flop, they'll usually enter check call mode. That means you will get an extra BB as opposed to an extra SB.

Fnord

08-01-2005, 03:53 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I find it interesting how people post this stuff then complain about players that call with nothing and playback on any paired board with nothing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

pokerfanatic

08-01-2005, 03:55 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I find it interesting how people post this stuff then complain about players that call with nothing and playback on any paired board with nothing...

Fnord is the man

Fnord

08-01-2005, 04:07 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Also consider if you're playing against aware opponents.

UTG limps, you raise 99 from some position, both blinds call.

The flop comes AAQ and it's checked to you. If they know you'll try to "slow play" AQ 90%+, then you're leaking information by betting.

Many mediocre players (like the top 20% of 2/4 and 3/6 players) are "predictably tricky."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

pokerlearner

08-01-2005, 05:33 PM

#14 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: california

Posts: 366

I have gotten in more trouble with slowplaying than I have won.

Here is one hand that i slowplayed it HORRIBLY and ruined it day before yesterday in B&M.
-----------------------------
Hero is Kh-Qd in UTG.

Preflop: hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls,, Button raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: 9d-10h-Jh
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: 9d-10h-Jh-9h
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls (HUGE MISTAKE, was greedy and hoping to win a huge pot), UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

River: 9d-10h-Jh-9h-10s
SB checks, BB bets, Hero folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Button raises, SB folds, BB calls.

Button: Ac-10d
BB: 9c-5s
-----------------------------------------------------
Another hand AQ from yesterday B&M where it shows, i dont have to slow play.

Hero in MP1 with Ac-Qd

Preflop: UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Flop: Ah-Qh-Qs
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls,BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: Ah-Qh-Qs-9h
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, Button folds, SB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: Ah-Qh-Qs-9h-9s
SB bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, SB calls.

SB shows Kh-Ks.

If I had checked, no one would have bet that flop or turn and only missing bets. I am no expert but at least in B&M I dont check, unless i am fairly sure some aggro guy after me is going to bet. I usually bet hoping someone would raise me so i can 3bet.

koolmoe

08-01-2005, 09:13 PM

#15 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Drowning in prosperity

Posts: 1,279

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

It doesn't really matter how you play this hand since this situation will come up so rarely. There are lots of hands that will call (any A, any Q, any K, J, or T, any backdoor flushdraw) but not bet. If you bet and everyone folds, you probably weren't going to get a call anyway. Also, it's a relative longshot for anyone to make a big second best hand and raise you, if, as you claimed, no one raises without the nuts.

Besides, if you don't bet, you'll miss out on all the low limit bluff calls.

Poker is freedom

08-02-2005, 10:58 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I want someone to pick up a pair of kings or something to call me with later in the hand
My hand is almost invulnerable barring someone having a pair of aces
and this situation arises 0.09% of the time, almost once in a thousand flops

It can also apply to when you flop trips with an ace kicker
Your hand is vulnerable, but if there is no flush draw or straight draw people will just fold their nothing in an unraised pot
Sorry, the fish don't know the difference between a raised and unraised pot what was I thinking :/

BTW, I'll take 9 fish any time of day or night. I could play almost any hand and still have it EV+

Element187

08-02-2005, 07:14 PM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 802

Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

agreed!!

slow playing most of the time is incorrect, decent players expect slow playing on that type of a flop, so if you slow play someone, they will fold .. bet out at it, they think your trying to buy the pot, and will call you down with any Q, A or pocket pair.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

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