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Lay down KK here?

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Kessler

10-19-2005, 05:10 PM Post subject: Lay down KK here?

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

B&M $3/6 - Just sat down at the table, no real reads other than HJ appears rookie. Asking what the bet is, string raising, PRF'ing any K/A and showing down crap, etc. First orbit, this happens. Vegas Cardroom, cap is 5 bets.

Dealt to Hero (UTG) Kd, Kc

Hero Raises, UTG+1 Calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, HJ re-raises, 4 folds, Hero 4 bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls, HJ calls.

And it's 4 of us to the Flip:

Ad, 10c, 4d

Hero Checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, HJ Bets, Hero Calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Toss: 4c

Hero Checks, UTG+1 Checks, MP3 checks, HJ Bets, Hero.............

Is the pot big enough to continue to call here? Do I showdown anyway? I put at least ONE of my opps on an Ace, particularly HJ because he's advertising like mad that he's got it and I'm chasing a 2-outer for a 10BB pot. And with 2 diamonds on the flop, there's probably a flush draw out there too. Whattya think?

-Kessler

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

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lamaros

10-19-2005, 05:37 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 346

No point having reads if you dont trust them.

Room

10-19-2005, 05:54 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 197

With 4 opponents to the flop each in for 4 SBs, thus getting 16-1, I would bet the flop. Unless you have a physical read on the HJ that he has an A, I don't know how you could say he is advertising the A based on his betting line - he has simply put bets into a sizable pot after 3 people have showed weakness to him on 2 streets. If he raises your flop bet, then you have better information to conclude that he is advertising an A.

Kessler

10-19-2005, 06:08 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

Remember this is a B&M live game. He looked closely at the flop, looked at his cards again, then bet. I would call that a physical read. I was a bit surprised at the reraise pre-flop, but considering that I saw him raise Ax and Kx pre-flop, it made sense.

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

Ltrain

10-19-2005, 06:13 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Miami, Florida

Posts: 514

Following your line, checkraise the flop to make it two bets for UTG+1 and MP3 and to put the decision back on HJ. If you get middle callers and/or HJ 3 bets you, you now have a better idea of where you stand for the turn.

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

Room

10-19-2005, 06:15 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 197

If you are convinced he has an A (which is fine if that is your read), and you are going to call a flop bet anyways, why not bet it yourself? If he raises the flop, you can CONFIDENTLY peel and fold the turn UI. But just checking and calling gives you NO indication of what he has and where you stand. Couldn't he have QQ here?

Kessler

10-19-2005, 07:10 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

With the short time I was there, I saw HJ play 90% of his hands, and raise any A or K. If he had QQ, I would expect him to cap at 5 bets preflop. But again, just sat down so I had only seen a small selection of hands.

I agree that Check/Raise here would have been a better move than just check/call.

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

Kessler

10-19-2005, 09:25 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

For what it's worth:

Toss: 4c

Hero Checks, UTG+1 Checks, MP3 checks, HJ Bets, Hero............. Folds, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: Ks

MP3 checks, HJ bets, MP3 calls.

Showdown: HJ shows A9o, MP3 mucks hand.

The result is that I would have won the hand, probably with signifigant action, but I feel I made the right decision for +EV.

Thanks!
-Kessler

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

outphase

10-19-2005, 10:13 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kessler

A fold is always 0 EV. See SSH for the explanation. At least that's what I understand

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.

Kessler

10-19-2005, 10:58 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

I meant... Dropping KK against an Ace on the Flop was the right decision. The result this time was that I would have won, but a majority of the time my kings will go unimproved and Ax will drag the pot.

Thanks for all the help.

-Kessler

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

Demiparadigm

10-19-2005, 11:07 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

Quote:

Originally Posted by Room

I need a better explanation here.
You have advocated a line that loses you 2 bets when behind, but gains you little when you are ahead.
DUCY?

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

KoRnholio

10-19-2005, 11:24 PM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by Room

I would also tend to lead out here, but the problem then is that (especially in B&M) you'll get 2+ calls (rarely a raise unless they have a big ace) and then be faced with a dilemma of to bet or not on the turn...

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

Room

10-20-2005, 12:32 AM

#13 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 197

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

I need a better explanation here.
You have advocated a line that loses you 2 bets when behind, but gains you little when you are ahead.
DUCY?

The flop is WA/WB. If we're ahead, they're drawing slim. If we're behind, we're 22-1 against. If we are basing our play purely on odds, we should chceck/fold since we cannot get the odds we need to continue. I just don't see folding as an option in this large pot, and check/calling will not help us see where we are.

Demiparadigm

10-20-2005, 01:46 AM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

WA/WB says check/call. That way you win the most ahead, and lose the least behind.
If we want information about our opponents hand, we can lead, but that forces us to often fold to a raise, since we don't have odds to "peel"
In this pot, we do have odds to "peel" on the flop, but what if we lead and are called in 2 spots? do we then check/fold? check/call? or lead/fold since our odds are now no longer there?

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Kessler

10-20-2005, 05:39 PM

#15 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

Quite honestly, I'm glad that the Ace came on the Flop. Even though I didn't like mucking after going 4 bets pre-flop, I'd rather the Ace show up right away, then on the River once I've been pushing it the whole way and am now Pot committed. I probably should not have even called the flop bet in the first place. KK comes around often, wait for a better flop.

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

elipsesjeff

10-20-2005, 08:14 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

WA/WB says check/call. That way you win the most ahead, and lose the least behind.

Its the other way around, you lose the most when behind but win the least when ahead.

DUCY?

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Demiparadigm

10-29-2005, 01:33 AM

#17 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Location: Party 6 max

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

WA/WB says check/call. That way you win the most ahead, and lose the least behind.

Its the other way around, you lose the most when behind but win the least when ahead.

DUCY?

This is true when we have position on our opponents.
When we are WA/WB we should call when bet into, and bet when checked to.
Out of postion, the situation changes.
By betting on the A high flop, we force our opponent to fold a hand that we beat, and raise with most hands that beat us. (and possibly some that don't)
When we check, our opponent will bet a wider range.
A typical line is check/call/check/call bet/call.
Since the pot is large, we can't fold on the flop.
The question is what line gives us the greatest EV in this multiway pot.
There are 16sbs in the pot on the flop.
We have some choices here:
Bet/call- a bet may thin the field, giving us the best chance to win the pot. We have to assume that a raise represents an ace, in which case we are drawing to ~3 outs (2 kings, and a backdoor nut flush draw) Our equity is too great to fold, but we must fold the turn unimproved.
check- a check allows us to see the action on the table before we act. If there is a single bet, we must call due to pot odds. If there is a bet and a raise, we must assume one of the players has us beat, and calling 2 bets we no longer have odds to chase our draw, forcing us to fold. Checking gives us the most information for the cheapest price. We are not incredibly worried about giving a free card, since we are likely WA/WB, and we have the flush redraw.
We are forced with more decisions when we bet, and are called as well as when we check and call. Chances are that someone has an ace in a multiway raised pot. However, the pot is large so it will be difficult to fold getting 10 to 1 on a turn call. Our effective odds are much worse though; since to show down we will often pay 2BBs into a pot that will be ~15BBs So, to call unimproved on the turn we have to think that we will win a showdown more than 14% of the time to break even.

Now let's consider a hypothetical situation where we have K

in a 6 max game and raise in EP. CO 3 bets, and we cap, he calls.
HU to the flop for ~9SBs.
Assuming CO will 3 bet here with ATs+, KQs, AQo+ and 88+
The flop comes as above: A

CO will never fold an ace, and will raise some hands that we beat if we lead, but will fold most hands that we beat.
What is the best way to make the most/ lose the least?

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Demiparadigm

10-31-2005, 10:15 AM

#18 (permalink)

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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

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