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LAG style at the micro limits ? -->>way to hell

  
 
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Lance
Old 12-22-2008, 03:09 PM     Post subject: LAG style at the micro limits ? -->>way to hell #1 (permalink)  
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Is it possible to play LAG style at limits up to 0,5/1 ?
everyone wants to be an aggressive player unfortunately its not possible everywhere.
If you wanna reach smth like this 30/23/2.4 you have to raise preflop with hands like small SC 65s-98s, A6-A8 and 22-55.
I played 3 months ago this style and i found out that mentioned hands are not profitable against fish.
I believe that it might be profitable at the higher limits than 0,5/1.

Chopper you play microlimits, could you tell me your image at 0,25/0,5 limit or your opening hands ?

Lets say, you are CO with hand like A6o, would you open raise when you know that BTN and blinds are loose players ?

imho optimal image for micro is smth around 21/16/2.0
Your suggestions ?
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asdpikas
Old 12-22-2008, 08:15 PM #2 (permalink)  
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ive been quite profitable around 30/20/2 at all micro limits

i raise A6o in that spot

image is worthless at the micros, they dont pay attention

u raise and get 3 callers, play fit or fold.... value bet them, but don t try to bluff them, postflop, play straightforward correct math by the book Sklansky value punish the fish poker, and u'll be FINE
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
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When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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Ragnar4
Old 12-22-2008, 11:09 PM #3 (permalink)  
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way to hell?

More like Way to broke.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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Chopper
Old 12-23-2008, 12:17 AM #4 (permalink)  
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asd plays more loose/aggro than i do, for sure. but, i am getting closer to that play, too, all the time. the more confident i get in both my post flop abilities and how poorly my opponents play post flop, the wider and wider i seem to get. but, i am still fairly tight, to be honest.

however, at levels like 25/50c, i am starting to have a hard time respecting the money anymore. i find myself REALLY opening up late and in bvb situations. and, i dont care much post flop.....because they do.

but, you have to be aware of how your "image" is running because you can find spots to use it. if you have shown nothing but the nuts for awhile, you WILL get respect on your semibluffs and steals. if you have been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, you will get called down VERY lightly. thats "image" at the micros, and thats about as far as it goes.

that said, i think when i play my best, players think i am a crazy muthafugga. i will get to SD with 57s and AA and KJo and have the best hand every time...and be raising all the way, too. but, the second i get caught in a semibluff/follow up, i chill until i show a legit hand again. (shouldnt be saying this...lol)

my range is rather wide on the button, and tightens up the earlier we go. but, i overlimp a lot of shit at a passive table....like the 25/50c'ers produce. and, i am not that active in aggro pf tables, either....more 3betting or folding.

there used to be a great saying that doesnt really get used online anymore. "see as many flops as you can AS CHEAP AS YOU CAN and play your cards out from there." this is golden advice at the micros and smaller live games. why? because these players suck at protecting their hands, charging for draws, reading hands, and adjusting to what they saw you do.

CO opening a pot with A6o with loose blinds....i raise. why? because there is a great chance i take the pot with a cbet when the pussies check it to me. thats more important than how often they call raises. and, when i hit the A i am playing until they raise me back. and, when i hit the 6 i am playing with 5 outs to a hand that slaughters that stupid assed AQ that refused to 3bet me pf. but, an inordinate amount of the time, that dillhole will drag 77 to showdown in spite of the A on the flop.

thats WHY we raise A6o from the CO....both 6max and FR. as for a "set range," i dont really have one anymore. it just depends on so many factors. but, late....it includes: Q8s, J7s, 57s, QTo, K5o, etc. however, no where near that in ep. if i am catching the right cards, in the right spots, i will look just like a 45/35 nutfugger. but, i can also run 12/10 on you, too.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 12-23-2008, 08:02 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
asd plays more loose/aggro than i do, for sure. but, i am getting closer to that play, too, all the time. the more confident i get in both my post flop abilities and how poorly my opponents play post flop, the wider and wider i seem to get. but, i am still fairly tight, to be honest.

however, at levels like 25/50c, i am starting to have a hard time respecting the money anymore. i find myself REALLY opening up late and in bvb situations. and, i dont care much post flop.....because they do.

but, you have to be aware of how your "image" is running because you can find spots to use it. if you have shown nothing but the nuts for awhile, you WILL get respect on your semibluffs and steals. if you have been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, you will get called down VERY lightly. thats "image" at the micros, and thats about as far as it goes.

that said, i think when i play my best, players think i am a crazy muthafugga. i will get to SD with 57s and AA and KJo and have the best hand every time...and be raising all the way, too. but, the second i get caught in a semibluff/follow up, i chill until i show a legit hand again. (shouldnt be saying this...lol)

my range is rather wide on the button, and tightens up the earlier we go. but, i overlimp a lot of shit at a passive table....like the 25/50c'ers produce. and, i am not that active in aggro pf tables, either....more 3betting or folding.

there used to be a great saying that doesnt really get used online anymore. "see as many flops as you can AS CHEAP AS YOU CAN and play your cards out from there." this is golden advice at the micros and smaller live games. why? because these players suck at protecting their hands, charging for draws, reading hands, and adjusting to what they saw you do.

CO opening a pot with A6o with loose blinds....i raise. why? because there is a great chance i take the pot with a cbet when the pussies check it to me. thats more important than how often they call raises. and, when i hit the A i am playing until they raise me back. and, when i hit the 6 i am playing with 5 outs to a hand that slaughters that stupid assed AQ that refused to 3bet me pf. but, an inordinate amount of the time, that dillhole will drag 77 to showdown in spite of the A on the flop.

thats WHY we raise A6o from the CO....both 6max and FR. as for a "set range," i dont really have one anymore. it just depends on so many factors. but, late....it includes: Q8s, J7s, 57s, QTo, K5o, etc. however, no where near that in ep. if i am catching the right cards, in the right spots, i will look just like a 45/35 nutfugger. but, i can also run 12/10 on you, too.
THAT WAS WELL SAID AND VERY WELL EXPLAINED

nh Chopper!
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Lance
Old 12-23-2008, 11:58 AM #6 (permalink)  
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i really appreciate your comments guys, i just needed to hear those
adjustments if i do something terribly wrong coz now i am running pretty bad last week, after 9k hands i am -2,36 BB/100. Worst suckouts during this year. Really "happy" Christmas.
Today 6x dealt KK and was 3x against AA. Its out of my understanding and not even this.
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Chopper
Old 12-23-2008, 01:15 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance
i really appreciate your comments guys, i just needed to hear those
adjustments if i do something terribly wrong coz now i am running pretty bad last week, after 9k hands i am -2,36 BB/100. Worst suckouts during this year. Really "happy" Christmas.
Today 6x dealt KK and was 3x against AA. Its out of my understanding and not even this.
i could take the asshole approach on you very easily and say:

wait until you go on a 30k, 250 bb downer and, then, you can bitch. but, i wont because:

coolers are ALL relative to the player having one.

at the stakes i play, its pretty unusual to see a 100bb cooler very often. and, i am not used to them. however, players that play higher would call me a whiner when i bitch about one.

so, no offense, i try not to.

all you can do is rest confidently in the fact that YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT WINNING POKER THAN THEY DO. and, believe me, that is likely a big, honking fact right now....and, it will only get better from here. (the KK bullshit will always happen, but that doesnt change the fact that KK is your 2nd best performing hand overall......forever)

to me, everything is slower in limit. all the swings tend to last longer. the variance lasts longer. even the growth curve is longer...to me. its a "sweet science" and a balance of math and experience.

just last night, i came off a week of 1200 hand, 124 bb uptick....and, got greeted by a 10 minute 35 bb downer where i couldnt do shit with shit. but....

limit seems like a constant struggle for power between arrogance and "why me, god? why me?"
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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nhalks
Old 12-23-2008, 01:15 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I just joined these forums so hello everyone

I started a few years ago, playing a very tight aggressive game, probably about 19/17 at the micro levels like .10/.20, .25/.50 and .50/1. I found this to be quite profitable and I advanced as quick as can reasonably be expected at these levels.

$2/$4 onwards is where I found my LAG game and now I often play 29/25 at 5/10 and 10/20 and would never look back to my TAG past.

However, I had a shock recently when teaching my friend from a beginner on stars at .10/.20. I tried to show him a LAG game but on many tables it was absolutely worthless as there was an incredible amount of occasions when 5 or 6 people would see the flop. I thus reverted to showing him to play more TAG (which is a better starting point for a beginner anyway).

I personally think that playing LAG at micro limits is suicide UNLESS you table select well. As he has improved, I have begun to show my friend more LAG techniques as we have been playing only tables with below around 35% of players p/flop. Here you get the weak-tight players who you can completely run over with aggression.

Most people would rather play a more LAG game as it's simply more fun and I find it to be generally a better strategy for higher stakes. Therefore, I feel it is better to learn to play LAG early and if you play somewhere like stars at micro levels, look for the right tables and it can be instantly profitable as well as beneficial for your advancement to higher levels.
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Chopper
Old 12-23-2008, 01:23 PM #9 (permalink)  
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one other thing about the downswings. if i am still convinced they are most likely variance, or self-inflicted, i tighten way up for awhile.

like a turtle that sees trouble coming. and, i slowly start to poke my head out again when i feel the danger has passed.

edit: nice post, nhalks! welcome aboard.

i think we all evolve to LAG as we move up because of both boredom and the general tightening of the games. you can only tighten up so far before you start running 4/3 and shit. and, how much fun is that crap? that is my problem w/ NL right now. i cant open up enough to counter the ever-tightening of the players....and dont care to tighten up to 12/10 as a default strategy.....BOOOOOORING.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Lance
Old 12-23-2008, 03:33 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
I personally think that playing LAG at micro limits is suicide UNLESS you table select well. As he has improved, I have begun to show my friend more LAG techniques as we have been playing only tables with below around 35% of players p/flop. Here you get the weak-tight players who you can completely run over with aggression.
Welcome nhalks,
you confirm my point.
It says the most money comes from the mistakes of the weak players, it means we should be looking for the loose passive tables with those weak players. But maybe paradoxically we should be looking for the tables with tight aggressive players and train LAG style on them for the advanced poker as a preparation for higher stakes.
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Chopper
Old 12-23-2008, 04:08 PM #11 (permalink)  
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you are better off learning both and learning to flip-flop between both styles as your table, run, villains, etc, dictate.

if you focus on only ONE style, you will become predictable and easier to read.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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nhalks
Old 12-23-2008, 04:08 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Hi and thanks for the welcome Lance

Yes I think you can go 2 ways at micro levels, look for the loose passive tables and play tight-agressive or look for the weak-tight tables and play loose-aggressive. I am personally teaching my students to seek out the tighter tables in order for them to become comfortable with situations that arise from loose-aggressive play but there is nothing wrong with tightening right up and seeking out the loose-passive tables, particularly if you want to grind loads of tables.

The main paradox here that I have discovered is that choosing the former seems to carry less variance. Traditionally LAG styles suffer more from variance but at the micro limits I believe that if you select the right tight tables you will suffer less variance playing LAG than you would playing TAG at the loose passive tables, owing to how easy those players are to read.

I have not played the micro-levels for some time now though and only see limited amounts of it when teaching so I would like to hear what players playing at micro levels think about this...
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Lance
Old 12-23-2008, 04:12 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
limit seems like a constant struggle for power between arrogance and "why me, god? why me?
these is my words. I am asking like that almost every playing day. If you are running well you are telling yourself something like "yes, finally i can play a good poker, i did it !"
If running bad "why me ? i cant believe, that's the cheat !"
after 300k hands (all 6max limits) i am cca 1,5BB/100 with many huge downswings and a few short upswings, is it normal ? Thats very strange for me.
I thought that upswings and downswings should be approximately the same on the long run.
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Lance
Old 12-23-2008, 04:29 PM #14 (permalink)  
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well, i will realize the test.
Instead of sitting down at the tables with high plr/flop (50%-60%), i will focus on (20%-35%). After 20k i will write some remarks.
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Chopper
Old 12-23-2008, 04:50 PM #15 (permalink)  
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1.5/100 is a fairly good winrate for LHE tables. at the micros, though, i think 3 can be had. however, dont focus on what your winrate is. instead, focus on building that bankroll and moving up...it thats your goal. or, enjoying the game....if THAT's your goal. whatever you want, you will get out of this game. you just have to learn yourself and stop trying to get stuff you dont actually want to work for. (sorry for the Yoda rant, but learning oneself is a huge key to this game, imo)

if you want a good read, look into Ed Miller. he posted an article (if i can find it again, i'll put the link in here) where he was a LOSING player at 3/6 live, but knew he was playing correctly. he jumped over 4/8 and into either 5/10 or 10/20, i cant remember. but, the whole idea was that he KNEW the fundamentals of the game. he wasnt worried about the shorter term variance that came with 30 hands/hour in live games.

if you carry a 1, 5, or freaking 10, it doesnt much matter in the long run. we are getting too "winrate oriented" thanks to HEM and PT. its a nice number to know. but, thats about it. dont focus on increasing that number. focus on moving up and making more money, and refining your game to make even more.

easier said than done.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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