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Fnord
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03-08-2005, 07:00 PM
Post subject: KTs and I don't suck as bad as they do
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Table is kinda aggro pre-flop, but fairly loose.
UTG is unknown and has less than 10BB
No other real specific reads.
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter
Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with T , K.
UTG calls, Fnord calls, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, UTG calls, Fnord calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.
Flop: (16.33 SB) 9 , 7 , T (5 players)
UTG checks, Fnord checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Button calls, UTG calls, Fnord raises...
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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I like your flop raise .... even if you are behind, the pots big so you gotta protect your hand.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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What exactly am I protecting my hand from with that raise?
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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e.g. Someone spiking a pair of Js or Qs on the turn to beat your Ts, or maybe MP1 is sitting on a pair of 9s and your raise requires him to call two-cold to spike another 9.
What was your thinking behind the flop raise?
Did you get a free card on 4th? (granted, You're not in the right position to get one)
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gutshot
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: lemonade was a popular drink and it still is
Posts: 608
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The way I see it, MP1 is the only one in the hand who might not call on the flop. Everybody else already has a bet in and they are probably not going anywhere.
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-jay
"i think the biggest leak in my game is using 2nd level thinking against players who can't think on the first level." -Renton
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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I think this hand is a clear example of waiting for the turn to raise. Your flop raise will not even clear out a gut shot draw here. If the turn card is a blank, raise it, if its not, its an easy check fold or maybe a call pending on the action.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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hey all,
my first post here at FTR. been reading for a while but decided to get involved in some discussion.
Fnord, you said the table was aggro pre-flop. How'd you decide to limp UTG+1 knowing it could be raised behind? Id be thinking that it would be investing a 2+ SB pre-flop on a marginal hand without position.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Room
hey all,
my first post here at FTR. been reading for a while but decided to get involved in some discussion.
Fnord, you said the table was aggro pre-flop. How'd you decide to limp UTG+1 knowing it could be raised behind? Id be thinking that it would be investing a 2+ SB pre-flop on a marginal hand without position.
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limping early in this kind of game isn't a mistake if you're gettin 3 or 4 cold callers anyways after a raise.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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i would agree, youd want to see at least 4 players to the flop. however, where do you go from your postflop raise? TP w/ K is solid and the raise is the right play, but how do you handle a 3bet back? id assume youd have to call/fold unimproved. so i might not make a preflop call in early postion because i can never feel as though pairing either my K or T is strong enough to extract the maximum from my position.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Room
i would agree, youd want to see at least 4 players to the flop. however, where do you go from your postflop raise? TP w/ K is solid and the raise is the right play, but how do you handle a 3bet back? id assume youd have to call/fold unimproved. so i might not make a preflop call in early postion because i can never feel as though pairing either my K or T is strong enough to extract the maximum from my position.
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for this particular hand i would call instead of raise the flop, and see how the turn is. this board has many straight draws and flush draws. on the turn if UTG bets you can raise, protecting your hand on a blank card. or if UTG checks, you can check too and gain lots of information.
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redih
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Cumberland, Maryland
Posts: 53
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I actually like the raise. With the buttons call on 1bet the flop, I'm thinking AK or just overcards that he wants to hit. I am thinking MP2 may have AT but more often than not, it's hard to tell without knowing if he re-raises ur bet. Then it may be check/fold or check/call. I think the raise definitely reps your hand and if the turn is a blank, you may be able to take it down right there. Again, you never know who plays 68 or J8. Hopefully you get a 2/3h on the turn and win the pot, or you get something that will improve your hand. Right now, I think you're ahead of the pot.
I was in the same position the other day, had KJ against AJ. I lost, but he was really passive so who could've guessed?
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Trust your parachute.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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im tending to think raising this flop would be a good play. you do have TP now. if its good, you want more SB's in the pot now. if you are behind to an PP JJ-AA you should find out from a 3bet. you cant protect your hand here with the raise however since the pot gives enough odds to draw to the straight/flush. that would be my arguement for simply folding preflop. with raises from behind, its hard to know where you stand pre-flop and no matter how loose/agg these players may be, you cant confidently maximize your winnings when pairing up for significant value. the only value i see in this hand, under those conditions, is a flush.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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here's what i don't like about the raise.
let's assume MP1 folds to the check raise. everyone else calls, so on the turn the pot is 12BB. assume the turn is a blank, and Hero bets out. he'll either get raised and be forced to call down, or he'll get 3 people calling because they have odds to call anything.
raising the flop basically ties you down to a showdown because by the river the pot will be too big to fold.
really it's just a matter how much you like to push your edges. IMO for this hand your edge isn't really high enough for a flop raise...especially when there are so many cards that destroy your hand (overcards, straight cards, flush cards)
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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why does hero bet out on the turn? if your raise just gets called can probably put them on flush/straight draw, or any single pair. therefore, if the turn doesnt improve your holding, and with early position, check and take it from there. if the turn is especially scary, and if there's a lot action, its probably an easy fold. and going back to the flop, if its 3bet, its a check/fold on the turn unless you improve. i think youd be hoping for information about where you stand rather than pushing the marginal edge on the flop. better to find out with SBs than BBs.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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the reason you dont raise this flop is because almost half the deck can beat you on the turn. You cannot get rid of a flush draw, gutshot, lower pair, or top pair here with a check raise. Plus there are 3 over cards that will kill your hand. If the turn is a blank, your hand is much more likely to hold up, so you can raise to A. force out weaker draws and B. for value because you have good equity in the hand.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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i would agree with that, and would say even more than half will cause you to be beat on the turn. that leads to an interesting question then. is folding>calling here?
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Room
i would agree with that, and would say even more than half will cause you to be beat on the turn. that leads to an interesting question then. is folding>calling here?
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if everyone calls the flop, you should definitely bet out on the turn on a blank because you do not want to give out any free cards.
checking the turn on a blank has an advantage if someone late bets, allowing you to raise and forcing the 2 players in between to call 2 cold. or someone will bet, another raise, and 3 bet back to you and it's an obvious fold. of course, the problem with this checking is if no one bets, you've given a free card. if someone to your left bets, raising again is pushing a very small edge when everyone will have odds to call after.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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maybe i'm confusing what im asking. first, we should figure out which cards are blanks, or at least not scary enough to c/r. 2-5 are safe, excluding the clubs. if this game is loose, i guess its probably debatable whether any 6-9 is safe. 2 T's are safe (unless you have someone on a set on this flop, probably unlikely). J Q and A are overs. finally, there are 2 K's that are probably worth .5 out each (in the case someone is holding QJ for an open-ender). So i guess my overly tight view of what is safe would include 3 suits of 2s-5s, 2 T's, and 1 out worth of 2 K's. thats roughly 1/3 cards are safe.
if one of these cards comes, and you open the turn, how can you be sure you are not outkicked, or up against JJ-AA without raising the flop? You would be setting yourself up for a raise in such a case. even A10 or (if its loose) K10 would raise your turn bet. i would agree though, that if you could be sure that someone to your right would bet and you could raise to isolate the river, that would be the best possible scenario in this situation. however, how certain must you be of that to try that play? the size of the pot should give those draws proper odds to call your turn lead, especially with their position on you. the pot is large enough after 5 players 3 bet to the flop and a single bet and call from everyone on the flop to warrant draws to call for cheap to the river. therefore, i see the flop raise as a means of cheap information in this instance. you cannot protect your hand in this pot, only save yourself future bets.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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i never added up what cards are safe and which ones arent. I am just saying pass on the small edge (raising the flop) to push a bigger one on the turn if a good card hits.
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Hi folks
Welcome to FTR, Room
I only have a small brain so my repsosne will be simple.
The flop was good/bad fo Fnord. Maybe the raise is a way of saying "I'm going to take command right here," and at a minimum I might get two or three players out and be left with someone who has either AK or is drawing to the flush. This is the type of hand that you either fold or raise to reduce a drawing field.
If he gets raised back, it's a fold. So, it's one extra bet.
There are two checks,1 bet and two cold calls before Fnord's raise.. so in that case it's probably a good play to force the action.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Quote:
If he gets raised back, it's a fold. So, it's one extra bet.
Code:
betting for information sucks
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
If he gets raised back, it's a fold. So, it's one extra bet.
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Wow, it takes talent to make such an amazingly weak/tight fold in an out of control pot.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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LOL I wish i could get away with comments like that.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
i never added up what cards are safe and which ones arent. I am just saying pass on the small edge (raising the flop) to push a bigger one on the turn if a good card hits.
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which cards would you consider safe on the turn? and, how do you play those cards? lead? check/raise? check/call? i dont see many cards comming on the turn that you can confidently lead or c/r with. i see you setting yourself up for the same situation on the turn as you are on the flop. many cards come come on the river as well to devalue your hand. i would think defining your hand early to see what other players might be holding (via a 3bet on the flop) will save you BBs on any turn plays.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Room
Fnord, you said the table was aggro pre-flop. How'd you decide to limp UTG+1 knowing it could be raised behind? Id be thinking that it would be investing a 2+ SB pre-flop on a marginal hand without position.
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With a limper in front and other loose players likely to come along for the ride my hand could withstand a raise.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Room
Fnord, you said the table was aggro pre-flop. How'd you decide to limp UTG+1 knowing it could be raised behind? Id be thinking that it would be investing a 2+ SB pre-flop on a marginal hand without position.
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With a limper in front and other loose players likely to come along for the ride my hand could withstand a raise. |
a raise, most likely yes, a 3-bet would scare me off regardless of how loose the table is. KTs just seems to marginal preflop to call a 3bet. plus, when you get to a flop like this, youre already 1.5BB invested. how will you regain those 1.5BB post-flop for all the hands you lose? i dont think you can ever feel more than 50% confident pairing up either the K or T will put you ahead in the hand. im bad with odds of making hands preflop, but i would think this hands value is its ability to make a flush. thiswould be the only case where you could regain those 1.5 BB lost preflop. so youd have to multiply 1.5BB preflop x the odds of making your flush by the river and determine if you think you could recouperate those bets when you make your flush.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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Who said anything about calling a three bet? I know I wouldn't and im sure fnord wouldnt either. If its two back to you, its an easy fold.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
Who said anything about calling a three bet? I know I wouldn't and im sure fnord wouldnt either. If its two back to you, its an easy fold.
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opps.
I almost folded it, but the action was multi-way enough that I just couldn't lay it down...
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trikflow77
Who said anything about calling a three bet? I know I wouldn't and im sure fnord wouldnt either. If its two back to you, its an easy fold.
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it looks like he called, was raised and 3-bet behind. therefore he called 2 more preflop. this was my reasoning behind not limping UTG+1 at a loose table with this hand.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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I thought you where talking about preflop....................doh
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Fold preflop to the reraise. Flop raise is fine.
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