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stuck

04-23-2005, 01:45 AM Post subject: KQo SB

#1 (permalink)

Flush

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Posts: 586

Not sure I like the turn (or river) play, but... anyway I could have avoided this?

Any suggestions for better play here?

Absolute Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

, K

.
UTG calls, MP calls, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 4

, Q

, 9

(4 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG folds, MP calls.

Turn: (3 BB) A

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.

River: (5 BB) K

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero raises, MP calls.

Final Pot: 8.83 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has Qs Kh (two pair, kings and queens).
MP has Ah Qh (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: MP wins 8.83 BB.

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

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Fnord

04-23-2005, 02:31 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Looks good to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

04-23-2005, 02:37 AM

#3 (permalink)

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i raise this preflop

Fnord

04-23-2005, 02:40 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

i raise this preflop

It's close, consider that you're 3 or 4 way out of position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

stuck

04-23-2005, 03:04 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

i raise this preflop

I usually don't raise anything below AQs from the blinds with two limpers. They're probably not going to fold and I'm out of position.

Maybe my requirements there are too low (maybe I should raise KQo+ from the blinds in 6max), but this way I have a disguised hand that may pay off better.

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

Fnord

04-23-2005, 03:10 AM

#6 (permalink)

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My range for 4+ way pots:

AA-JJ/AK/AQ and suited broadways. Sometimes more, but all of those hands have too much of a pre-flop edge not to push.

Offsuit hands weaker than AK/AQ really want position and short handed pots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

04-23-2005, 04:50 AM

#7 (permalink)

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i raise for value...KQo is mostly likely the best hand, and i like pushing my preflop equity with it.

Demiparadigm

04-23-2005, 05:04 AM

#8 (permalink)

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with offsuit broadway cards in the blinds against a field of limpers I think a check is correct. (except AK and maybe AQ) You will miss the flop the majority of the time, though when you hit you will usually have the best hand.
In a raised pot you make your opponents play more correctly when they chase weak draws, since their pot odds are so much better.
Therefore your reverse implied odds are worse in a raised pot.
These are not hands that you will often win a large pot with, and if you get much action, you are most likely beat.
The suited broadway cards are usually worth a raise from the blinds. The flush possibility adds a lot of equity to these hole cards.
Now, if you are in EP, It is correct to raise with KQo (or muck, if that's your style) You do not want a lot of limpers behind you, trying to draw out. The offsuit broadways do not play well multi-way.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Fnord

04-23-2005, 05:05 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

i raise for value...KQo is mostly likely the best hand, and i like pushing my preflop equity with it.

Yeah, you get fold equity on the BB, so it's a pretty good raise...

5,206,020 games 28.828 secs 180,589 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 24.2151 % [ 00.23 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 2: 24.2106 % [ 00.23 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 3: 20.0885 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 31.4858 % [ 00.30 00.01 ] { KQo }

However, once we get 5+ way the raise loses value fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

04-23-2005, 05:49 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

In a raised pot you make your opponents play more correctly when they chase weak draws, since their pot odds are so much better.

with this kind of thinking you might as well limp aces and kings as well. KQo is a very strong hand and you should raise to maximize your expectation.

Quote:

Now, if you are in EP, It is correct to raise with KQo (or muck, if that's your style)

mucking KQo preflop in a shorthanded game is a sin.

Fnord

04-23-2005, 05:53 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

with this kind of thinking you might as well limp aces and kings as well. KQo is a very strong hand and you should raise to maximize your expectation.

AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK have FAR greater pre-flop edges than KQo. Sometimes by passing on a small edge you can put yourself in better position to push a larger edge later.

You've made a relly good case for a raise here (I may have taken this too far), but add one or two more limpers and I like the call to keep the pot size down and to increase my chances of getting in extra bets from worse hands when I hit the flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

04-23-2005, 06:06 AM

#12 (permalink)

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i may have made it sound like KQo is invincible...

yes, AA-JJ/AK are far more powerful preflop, which is why you can take those hands to 4 bets preflop.

KQo is just strong enough to raise, and call the 3bet.

against 2 players, you should raise. the fact that they both limped should make you want to raise even more. against 3 limpers, the decision as you said is probably very close as it would be very difficult to fold that BB now that they are getting such good odds.

Demiparadigm

04-23-2005, 08:46 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Quote:
In a raised pot you make your opponents play more correctly when they chase weak draws, since their pot odds are so much better.

with this kind of thinking you might as well limp aces and kings as well. KQo is a very strong hand and you should raise to maximize your expectation.

The difference is that AA and KK are made hands that will often win a showdown unimproved. KQo is beaten by a naked Ace.
Since you will often miss the flop, and players are likely to call you down with weak (better) hands if you bluff, raising with KQo is not very +EV

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Fnord

04-23-2005, 08:59 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

The difference is that AA and KK are made hands that will often win a showdown unimproved. KQo is beaten by a naked Ace.

That's a silly way to look at it. A better way is measuring how much equity you have, then compare that to how a raise drives the play post-flop for better or worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

players are likely to call you down with weak (better) hands if you bluff

Not always true. I've won pots with KQ/KJ unimproved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

04-23-2005, 09:05 AM

#15 (permalink)

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Here is what I think of "made hands"...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with K

, A

.
UTG raises, Fnord 3-bets, 4 folds, CO calls, 3 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 5

, J

, 5

(3 players)
UTG bets, Fnord calls, CO calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) K

(3 players)
UTG checks, Fnord bets, CO folds, UTG calls.

River: (8.66 BB) 9

(2 players)
UTG checks, Fnord bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Jd Td (two pair, jacks and fives).
Fnord has Kc Ah (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: Fnord wins 10.66 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with K

, A

. Fnord posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, Fnord (poster) raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, MP1 calls, Fnord caps, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (22 SB) 7

, 3

, 4

(5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, MP1 calls, Fnord calls, CO folds, SB folds.

Turn: (12.50 BB) K

(3 players)
UTG bets, MP1 folds, Fnord raises, UTG calls $11.50 (All-In), Fnord calls.

River: (18.33 BB) 6

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: 18.33 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has 8h 8c (one pair, eights).
Fnord has Kh As (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Fnord wins 18.33 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is CO with Q

, K

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Fnord raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 3

, K

, 6

(5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, SB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 2

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Fnord bets, UTG+1 raises, MP2 calls, Fnord calls.

River: (13 BB) 7

(3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Tc Kh (one pair, kings).
Fnord has Qd Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Fnord wins 15 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with K

, Q

. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, Fnord raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 4 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 8

, T

, A

(3 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, MP2 folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 4.16 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins 4.16 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

honsheung

04-23-2005, 07:29 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Posts: 153

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

in fact, i seldom see the big blind wil fold becasue of your raise.
The big blind will usually call if there are already three peope.

And i have doubts if a preflop raise is correct. Many people try to limp with Ax suited , let say the case is diamond, and the flop has two diamonds,you are in a very dangerous posistion, right?

Provided the above two reasons, I think a limp with kq offsuit more save, what do you think ?

|~|ypermegachi

04-23-2005, 07:56 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Provided the above two reasons, I think a limp with kq offsuit more save, what do you think ?

those suited aces would go in regardless if you raise or not. if they miss the flop you automatically gain 2 small bets because they will fold without a backdoor draw. also, factor in the times when they miss their flush draw, you make some bets on the flop and turn from them.

honsheung

04-23-2005, 08:16 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

Quote:

Provided the above two reasons, I think a limp with kq offsuit more save, what do you think ?

but the big blind won't fold . At least i know in $1/2 table.

THat means kq offsuit is strong enough worth a raise for value preflop to face three opponents in the flop , do u mean that ?But peopel like to play Ax?
Are you meaning to big cards ie KQ offsuit can bet Ax in long term if 4 people see the flop ?

honsheung

04-23-2005, 08:18 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Sorry, wrong typing ,hyper
question should be :

Do u mean that KQ offsuit worth a raise for value if 4 people are going to see the flop ?

I am quite sure it is worth for 3 hands, but 4, I have doubts.

|~|ypermegachi

04-23-2005, 08:21 PM

#20 (permalink)

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with 4 people seeing the flop it's probably so close it doesn't really matter. i'd probably raise anyway for the fun of it.

lonnie

04-23-2005, 09:23 PM

#21 (permalink)

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The more I play poker, the fewer hands I raise from the SB and BB. I look for reasons not to put more money into the pot from early position. I think the weakness of your position negates the power of your KQ.

Not saying it's an incorrect raise, it just makes the rest of the hand hard to play.

Trikflow77

04-23-2005, 10:04 PM

#22 (permalink)

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From the blinds I raise AA-JJ AK/AQ/suted broadways. I would raise kq if I could get it HU or 3 handed. A lot of times it is situational and you raise more hands than this though.

honsheung

04-24-2005, 02:45 AM

#23 (permalink)

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If KQ suited , raise or not?

|~|ypermegachi

04-24-2005, 02:53 AM

#24 (permalink)

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KQs very easy raise

Fnord

04-24-2005, 03:41 AM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

KQs very easy raise

The only time I'm not putting in the first raise with KQs is UTGish if the table texture is such that I'll get loose over-calls but not loose cold calls and may even face an Ax 3-bet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ChezJ

04-26-2005, 10:17 PM

#26 (permalink)

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KQo is a really really vulnerable hand in my opinion. i recently saw phil gordon speak in person and he strongly advised against playing it in any position, calling it a net loser. i think that at the 3/6 level you are up against some pretty tight players compared to say 1/2. four-handed, your edge is not going to be so great even if you do have the best hand before the flop. case in point, there was a guy in the hand who limped in with AQs so the KQo was dominated all the way.

ChezJ

Fnord

04-26-2005, 10:59 PM

#27 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

i recently saw phil gordon speak in person and he strongly advised against playing it in any position, calling it a net loser.

My god, where do these people come up with this crap. Was he talking about No Limit?

http://teamfu.freeshell.org/poker_hands.html
+0.16BB/hand 1,045,069

I have it at
+0.18BB/hand 740

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

RiverMonkey

04-26-2005, 11:06 PM

#28 (permalink)

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A few points.

You have to differentiate between 6-handed and 10-handed when having this KQo debate. It's a much better hand at a 6-max table than at a 10-player table.

I don't think its fair to quote Phil Gordon without also relaying the context in which he made that comment. If I was to guess, I'd bet he was referring to NL, and not LHE.

Look at the equity numbers that Fnord posted. You can't argue with the math. There's certainly value in raising KQo with 3 or less opponents according to the equity numbers. Plus, you have to consider fold-equity based on the pre-flop strength you've demo'ed (assuming your opponents respect your raises of course

). That makes me comfortable raising with 4 opponents too.

I'd also be negligent to not mention the usual "it depends" e.g. how you decide to play KQo should also depend on the nature of your opponents, table texture etc.

Another point re: position. Yes, from the blinds you are out of position for all later streets, but you shouldn't discount the fact that you have more information than even the button when its your turn to act pre-flop.

I'd certainly feel more comfortable playing KQo with position, but I'm not mucking it in a short-handed game ... no way! In fact, I'm not mucking it in a 10-player game either (unless I'm facing two-cold from a tight raiser and re-raiser). In almost all other situations, my choices when facing a field of limpers in late position are to either raise, or limp. And from early position, I'd almost always rather come in for a raise, but I'm aggro that way

Fnord

04-26-2005, 11:12 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

Look at the equity numbers that Fnord posted. You can't argue with the math. There's certainly value in raising KQo with 3 or less opponents according to the equity numbers. Plus, you have to consider fold-equity based on the pre-flop strength you've demo'ed (assuming your opponents respect your raises of course

). That makes me comfortable raising with 4 opponents too.

Once we're 5-way you need to consider that your hand lost a lot of value and you're probably going to have to show someone a hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

I'd certainly feel more comfortable playing KQo with position, but I'm not mucking it in a short-handed game ... no way! In fact, I'm not mucking it in a 10-player game either (unless I'm facing two-cold from a tight raiser and re-raiser)

I fold AQo to a single raise all of the time. KQo is a no-brainer fold unless I have cause to 3-bet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ChezJ

04-26-2005, 11:23 PM

#30 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

i recently saw phil gordon speak in person and he strongly advised against playing it in any position, calling it a net loser.

My god, where do these people come up with this crap. Was he talking about No Limit?

yeah come to think of it, he was only talking about NL tourneys. forget i mentioned it.

elipsesjeff

04-27-2005, 02:54 AM

#31 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lonnie

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

RiverMonkey

04-27-2005, 05:37 PM

#32 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Once we're 5-way you need to consider that your hand lost a lot of value and you're probably going to have to show someone a hand.

In other words, your fold equity has gone bye-bye!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I fold AQo to a single raise all of the time. KQo is a no-brainer fold unless I have cause to 3-bet.

True, I left out the 'call one bet from a tight raiser' scenario in my post. Yes, that's an easy fold .... domination is too likely. I wish I could say that I consistently have the discipline to lay down AQo pre-flop to a tight raise .... I sometimes tend to not give my opponents' pf-raises enough respect. Put another way, the tricky part is to differentiate between tight raises and loose ones; even maniacs pick up real hands from time to time. On the other side of the coin, good/tricky, tight/agg players often switch gears on you, so a pf-raise from these players doesn't always mean you are dominated.

aleksandr

04-28-2005, 02:25 AM

#33 (permalink)

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I fold KQo to a threebet, unless the raiser does this alot. I can't see a hand here where I'm not severely beat unless I flop a straight. Who 3bets KT and KJ?

Operation Learn to Read
Reads: 7 posted
Money: $31
SNGs: 0
MTTs: 0

honsheung

04-28-2005, 07:26 AM

#34 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by aleksandr

I fold KQo to a threebet, unless the raiser does this alot. I can't see a hand here where I'm not severely beat unless I flop a straight. Who 3bets KT and KJ?

An idiot or a psycho

honsheung

04-28-2005, 07:27 AM

#35 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

). That makes me comfortable raising with 4 opponents too.

Once we're 5-way you need to consider that your hand lost a lot of value and you're probably going to have to show someone a hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

I fold AQo to a single raise all of the time. KQo is a no-brainer fold unless I have cause to 3-bet.

But my statisitc tell me a 3bets of AQo to a single raiser win more than lose.

Fnord, what do u think?

Fnord

04-28-2005, 07:31 AM

#36 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by honsheung

But my statisitc tell me a 3bets of AQo to a single raiser win more than lose.

Fnord, what do u think?

Who's the raiser? If it's Mr. "I play 4+ tables and have a 5% PFR" comming from EP, I'll pass. If it's Mr. "I play 50%+ of my hands and have raised once in the last 100+ hands" comming from EP, I'll pass there too. Don't just play cards, play people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

honsheung

04-28-2005, 07:36 AM

#37 (permalink)

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Posts: 153

That means a raise to 3bets, depend on people.
Anyway, thanks for your advice

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