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The KQo leak

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Shark Bait

08-07-2005, 09:08 AM Post subject: The KQo leak

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

ok this is CLEARLY my worst hand in terms of BB/hand and net loss.

I really need a new strategy for this hand. Typical hand goes like this:

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K

, Q

.
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 6

, 4

, 6

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (4.20 BB) 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 4.20 BB

This is kind of the way I've been playing it recently. If it's missing on the flop and turn, I'm not going to throw more money out there when they're obviously not going to fold.

Sometimes I will bet the turn as well, but even then I'm just throwing away more money it seems.

Here are my position stats for this hand:

I have stopped the cold calling...I am now folding this to a raise, unless on the BB. Any great errors here? I seem to be losing this no matter what position.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

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ender555

08-07-2005, 03:10 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 647

i'm not sure about your actual statistics, i have no experience in measuring specific hands yet.

You should be calling preflop with KQ and AJ unless you're in late position and then post flop i dont mind the way you played it. although if people see that you bet the flop with nothing every time and then check down it wouldn't be too hard to take cheap shots at you and steal pots. I would be using auto-rate feature and try to figure out who to bluff out on the turn and who to check fold too.

StinkyBeaver

08-07-2005, 03:53 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Apr 2005

Location: Denmark

Posts: 275

I definately think He should raise KQo as well as AJo. Even in EP.

However as said in SSH people spend way to much time discussing this and it's probably a close call wether to limp or to raise these in EP. MP or Lp first in it's always a raise.

postflop I think you could fire again on turn some of the times here chances are this flop haven't hit your opponet either.

As Ender said betting again on turn is pretty much read dependent. if it is a Tight player then you probably should bet out on turn aswell.

Nehmer

08-07-2005, 05:00 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Decatur, IL

Posts: 666

With a flop that almost definately missed my opponent and only one opponent left in the hand, I am going to bet the turn with this hand. Your sample size is too low for your statistics to matter one bit. I have had AK be a pretty big loser over samples of 62 hands.

Gatlin Dan

08-07-2005, 05:22 PM

#5 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Wild Bill's Backyard

Posts: 504

KQo and AJo should be raised from under the gun or anytime you open. I recently thought limpin was better until I went through and replayed all the hands. There's a thread about my experience in this situation somewhere.

When I miss the flop with these hands, I will often bet the flop and check the turn. If it is checked around, I bet the river if a blank comes. This stop n go seems to make people think you connected with the board somehow, more than if you raise preflop and bet every street.

"A lot of fortunes are made on what you don't play."--"Miami" John Cernuto

Fnord

08-07-2005, 06:09 PM

#6 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Small sample size and passing up easy turn bets doesn't help either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jmontis

08-07-2005, 11:46 PM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 1,296

bet flop and turn, villian probably just made a call with no pair no draw

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

Shark Bait

08-08-2005, 01:40 AM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

well...I'll tell you want usually happens. They call with some complete crap. And they get a piece of that missed flop and don't fold, even with bottom pair. So I end up just throwing money at them. I know this is great for me when I hit on the turn or river, but this is pretty rare.

What seems to be the most popular thing here is for them to cold call me with a pocket pair, then slow play their set. And they will see the river to see if they'll make a set. And yes, I know this is good for me, but The times they make their set I'm losing at least 4 BB per hand.

I just don't know how I can stop the slow played set. They know I'm going to bet, since I'm going to be fairly aggressive, so the check raise is easy for them.

In the particular hand above, CO had 33. And you better believe that he would not have folded on the turn or river.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

Fnord

08-08-2005, 01:44 AM

#9 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

How often do you need to get the other guy to fold or make a better hand for the turn bet to be profitable? It's considerably less than 50%. Often in Limit you make plays that expect to lose, but are still more profitably than check/fold or *gasp* check/call.

Winning a pot isn't success.
Losing a pot isn't failure.
Bluffing and getting called doesn't mean it wasn't a bad spot to bluff.

I've bet this turn with KJo on similar boards (rags with a pair) had the river go check, check and scooped the pot on more than one occasion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Gatlin Dan

08-08-2005, 04:26 AM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Wild Bill's Backyard

Posts: 504

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

I just don't know how I can stop the slow played set. They know I'm going to bet, since I'm going to be fairly aggressive, so the check raise is easy for them.

You can almost always safely fold to a c/r on the turn.
You can't really stop the slow-played set. You can't keep them from making it. You are up against a slowplayed set a lot less often than it seems. You remember the times they catch you with it, but don't remember or even know all the times they are calling you down with a PP that doesn't make a set. It's easy for us to forget the wins. You have to bet this. You can't not value bet something because it's possible your opponent could have you beat, most of the time he doesn't.

"A lot of fortunes are made on what you don't play."--"Miami" John Cernuto

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