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allLiving

10-24-2004, 09:06 AM Post subject: KQo Help

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 799

I played this hand poorly preflop I believe. Comments on flop call? I think I had odds to call.

PokerStars Game #795712989: Hold'em Limit ($2/$4) - 2004/10/24 - 05:01:52 (ET)
Table 'Misenus' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: allLiving ($167 in chips)
Seat 2: Ubstr811 ($100.50 in chips)
Seat 3: midnightspec ($150 in chips)
Seat 4: robieluna ($110 in chips)
Seat 5: riverman128 ($35 in chips)
Ubstr811: posts small blind $1
midnightspec: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to allLiving [Kh Qd]
robieluna: raises $2 to $4
riverman128: calls $4
allLiving: calls $4
Ubstr811: calls $3
midnightspec: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [5h 3s 7d]
Ubstr811: bets $2
midnightspec: calls $2
robieluna: calls $2
riverman128: calls $2
allLiving: calls $2
*** TURN *** [5h 3s 7d] [3c]
Ubstr811: bets $4
midnightspec: folds
robieluna: folds
riverman128: calls $4
allLiving: folds
*** RIVER *** [5h 3s 7d 3c] [8s]
Ubstr811: bets $4
riverman128: calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ubstr811: shows [9d 9h] (two pair, Nines and Threes)
riverman128: mucks hand
Ubstr811 collected $44 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $46 | Rake $2
Board [5h 3s 7d 3c 8s]
Seat 1: allLiving (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 2: Ubstr811 (small blind) showed [9d 9h] and won ($44) with two pair, Nines
and Threes
Seat 3: midnightspec (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 4: robieluna folded on the Turn
Seat 5: riverman128 mucked [Qh Ks] - a pair of Threes

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allLiving

10-24-2004, 09:07 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 799

Fnord any helpful all around KQo insight? 6-max?

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Fnord

10-24-2004, 09:16 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Don't cold call a raise with it unless it's suited. Cold calling too much (think more than once per ~250-500 hands) is a HUGE leak. If you can't 3-bet the raiser's range of hands or come in with a multi-pot hand behind other cold callers, fold!

Go through PokerTracker and create a cold call filter. Review those hands. Notice how much money you lost with them.

For what it's worth, in my 6.2k hands of 2/4 full this month, I've cold called 13 times:

AJs 4
KJs 1
TT 1
T9s 2 (one was a really stupid play)
88 1
77 1
66 3

net -$39 (no sets for me

)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

10-28-2004, 05:04 AM

#4 (permalink)

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elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

For what it's worth, in my 6.2k hands of 2/4 full this month, I've cold called 13 times

Thats insane.....I think I cold-call 13 times a day!

Fnord, would you cold call more if the stakes were lower? such as 1/2 or .5/1? Or raise more?

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Fnord

10-28-2004, 05:11 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Thats insane.....I think I cold-call 13 times a day!

Maybe it's one reason I'm beating higher stakes...

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Fnord, would you cold call more if the stakes were lower? such as 1/2 or .5/1? Or raise more?

Cold calling only becomes more correct when you come in behind other cold callers or expecting more cold callers behind you. So, I guess yes, but certainly not 13 times a day and certainly not with KQo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Toasty

10-29-2004, 03:51 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: England UK

Posts: 1,522

I'm with Fnord ont this one KQo is a weak hand to be CCing with even at the micro limits as it isn't much of a drawing hand with many hands dominating it when it hits the flop.

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

mike4066

10-29-2004, 04:37 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2003

Posts: 1,943

Bit of cold calling stats here.
I rarely cold call a bet.

This month 6k hands. (cold call)

AQo (6)
AQs (3)
TT, AKo (3)
AJo, 99 (2)

Fnord

10-29-2004, 06:57 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by mike4066

AQo (6)
AQs (3)
TT, AKo (3)
AJo, 99 (2)

AJo, ewww...
AQo should be a 3-bet against a loose raiser, otherwise fight the urge to play a pretty good hand and muck.

AKo cold calling is interesting. There are a couple spots I might do it, but it's pretty safe to 3-bet/cap away. Although there are a couple spots where you should think of mucking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

mike4066

10-29-2004, 07:46 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2003

Posts: 1,943

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

AJo, ewww...

Yep.. one miracled a weak boat, and the other I had to fold to 1 more bet..

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A

, J

.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 raises, CO folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A

, T

, 2

(4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) Q

(3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, MP3 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

AQo should be a 3-bet against a loose raiser, otherwise fight the urge to play a pretty good hand and muck.

I'm actaully losing money with the AQo hands i've cold called.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

AKo cold calling is interesting. There are a couple spots I might do it, but it's pretty safe to 3-bet/cap away. Although there are a couple spots where you should think of mucking...

I just went back over those hands. There were 4 that I should have 3 bet preflop, and 2 that I felt were correct to call.

The 2 were at the same table VERY LOOSE passive table. I was UTG+1 and UTG (sLag, passive post flop) raises. If I 3 bet the rest of the table will fold, but if I call the rest of the table calls behind. I ended up taking the flop 5 way. I figure if i'm already behind to the UTG raiser, I might as well let more people in and run it up.

dellcosta

10-29-2004, 09:59 PM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2004

Posts: 1

KQ is a fine hand to call with on the button, but it's definitely an easy one to overplay. I'd even cold call it, but if the flop misses me and the person who initiated the raise on the first round comes out swinging, that's definitely a situation where you should fold. He or she either has a high pair (AA or KK), or is a weak player who raises under the gun with a low pair and then lucks into a set.

It sounds like you were thinking of the pot odds, but got carried away. When the turn came around to you, there was $25 in the pot. With a $2 bet, the odds against finding one of the other Kings or Queens are almost 7 to 1. If it weren't for that pre-flop raise and the fact that everyone else stayed in the hand, your pot odds of 12.5 to 1 on the button would look decent.

In spite of the pot odds at this point, you've got to assume that someone else pulled a pair at least. That person, whoever it may be, has a better hand than you and a better chance than you of pulling two-pair or three of a kind. It's not looking too good at that point. Your strength on the button is being able to see who gets into the hand before making the decision. When everyone stayed in, you should have folded.

Dell Costa

Fnord

10-29-2004, 10:24 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by dellcosta

Cold calling with KQo is costing you money. Consider that the typical low limit player either doesn't raise a lot of hands (fold KQo) or is raising a lot of junk (KQo becomes a 3-bet.)

Against a tight raising range, KQo is too often dominated or against a hand that it plays poorly post-flop against (like JJ/TT.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

10-29-2004, 10:25 PM

#12 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike4066

I'm actaully losing money with the AQo hands i've cold called.

This is not unexpected. See previous remark on why cold calling at these tables is bad. Although AQo is a little stronger than KQ. Still, if someone has a monster you're getting the worst of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike4066

The 2 were at the same table VERY LOOSE passive table. I was UTG+1 and UTG (sLag, passive post flop) raises. If I 3 bet the rest of the table will fold, but if I call the rest of the table calls behind. I ended up taking the flop 5 way. I figure if i'm already behind to the UTG raiser, I might as well let more people in and run it up.

Raise to isolate then! AK is a monster against Lag heads-up. Give the players behind you a chance to cold call 3. Even at 2/4, it's not uncommon to see the big blind call 2sb to bring in a wide range of hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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