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KK vs flopped Ace and a maniac

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Hermann the Lombard

01-04-2008, 07:24 PM Post subject: KK vs flopped Ace and a maniac

#1 (permalink)

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Posts: 270

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, K

. MP2 posts a blind of $0.10.
Hero calls, 2 folds, MP2 (poster) checks, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A

, 9

, 2

(4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero ...

SB is maniacal, 52/24 with Flop AF of 4.5.
MP2 is brand new (posted) this hand, but since he posted in MP2 I would suspect a typical loose passive.

Would it be idiotic to raise this? I certainly can't trust any info from SB's betting, so a 3-bet wouldn't narrow his range. He would almost certainly slow-play a big hand on the flop, but I don't know if that would include top pair...and he probably wouldn't trust ME to bet as I'd been playing tightly. I wouldn't mind isolating myself against the known loose player, if that makes any sense here.

I guess I'm Somewhat Ahead/Way Behind here. My inclination is to raise the flop. If called I would call or bet the turn (folding to a raise), and check/fold the river UI. Hmm...sounds like I'm focusing on the maniac and ignoring the unknown. Thoughts?

Oh, no! Not another learning experience!

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bigspenda73

01-04-2008, 07:30 PM

#2 (permalink)

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bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

I'm too upset about PF to comment on anything else

Do you realize how glaring leaks like that are costing you chances to play higher levels?

Muzzard

01-04-2008, 07:30 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Cheshire, UK

Posts: 1,843

Why did you just call preflop? Seems semi ridiculous at limit.

Hermann the Lombard

01-05-2008, 12:57 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Posts: 270

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerMuzz

Why did you just call preflop? Seems semi ridiculous at limit.

I almost never call with AA or KK but at the time of this hand I was on such a ghastly run of cards (VP$IP < 8) that most of them would fold if I sneezed, and they had recently done so on a QQ hand. I had literally *just* read the section in ITH discussing mixing in an occasional call in order to get more action with the primo pairs, especially when your table image is extremely tight. I will not promise to never do this again, but I assure you that it will be very rare.

Now please get some oxygen for bigspenda!

Oh, no! Not another learning experience!

KoRnholio

01-05-2008, 02:02 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard

I almost never call with AA or KK but at the time of this hand I was on such a ghastly run of cards (VP$IP < 8) that most of them would fold if I sneezed, and they had recently done so on a QQ hand.

I doubt anyone is paying that much attention to how many hands you've played. Most people in my 2/4 games barely do

As played I probably call the flop and let laggo keep betting. There are no more overcards that can ruin our hand any more than it already may be. Plus there is only the one player left behind us that likely has no immediate outs against us.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

pokerfanatic

01-05-2008, 05:29 PM

#6 (permalink)

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your UTG limp sucks my nuts in the first place, because of that you lost the hand to a naked ace that was allowed to play cheaply...

“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

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snowboard_31

01-05-2008, 05:39 PM

#7 (permalink)

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hah, ill join the parade, that UTG limp of KK is asking to get outdrawn and probably did. I know its reiterating what others have said but at these micro of limit stakes almost noone is paying attention to your image and playing ABC poker is all you need to do.

Now on the flop ur hand just turned from a monster to marginal and the pot is only 40 cents (4 SB). Im probably letting this go, but Im tighter than a nun.

1. Get a seat to their right
2. Steal blinds at will
3. ...
4. Profit
"It should be a crime to not bet if someone has checked to you twice."
-soupie
"If you can pinpoint a player's range, you can own his soul."
-Bond18

DrivingDog

01-06-2008, 02:09 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

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Location: UK

Posts: 923

Just call down. He could have an Ace, a 9, a FD, bottom pair, or nothing, and we want him to keep betting if we're ahead and for us to pay off the least amount of chips if we're behind. Raising just lets him play his hand more correctly.

Next time raise preflop. Don't let a weak ace or suited junk see a cheap flop.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

Ragnar4

01-06-2008, 02:42 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Location: Billings, Montana

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BTW. If you absolutely HAVE To limp KK, Like someone has a gun to your head, and tells you to limp it. Make sure you're late, and the blinds are tightwads that fold to a lot of steals. In fact. If you're gonna get tricky, get tricky LATE.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

Hermann the Lombard

01-07-2008, 12:43 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic

because of that you lost the hand to a naked ace that was allowed to play cheaply...

Not this time, which naturally doesn't mean my play was good even for "mix-it-up" purposes. At some tables at this level I *do* discover people paying attention to the fact that I haven't played a hand in 35 minutes and it's irritating to only pick up the blinds with AA or KK.

Somehow I think I have *much* more glaring leaks that open-limping KK once per 40 opportunities.

Oh, no! Not another learning experience!

arborman

01-07-2008, 04:30 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Posts: 300

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard

At some tables at this level I *do* discover people paying attention to the fact that I haven't played a hand in 35 minutes and it's irritating to only pick up the blinds with AA or KK.

Now that I have left Stars I have to say that the micros at Stars include some comparatively good players, and much fewer terrible players. At the site I'm playing now (CD Poker) there are a surprising number of people who really, simply, do not get basic poker. Far more than at Stars.

snowboard_31

01-07-2008, 04:41 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2007

Posts: 206

Its understandable to want to get the most value out of your big pairs, and everyone folding is the most frustrating, but I think the reaosn everyone is so upset is because your in horrible position and inviting more hands to call and draw out on you.

As Ragnar said just up if your gonna limp do it late when there have been a bunch of folds. KK is probably your second most profitable, or at least top 5, hand and for that reason u should be maximizing value from it by raising preflop. Although you dont get the hand frequently its a huge contributor to your overall profit

Hermann the Lombard

01-07-2008, 04:35 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Posts: 270

KK is indeed my second most profitable hand, both per hand and net.

Since the point of limping KK is to *get* some callers it isn't clear to me that it's best to wait until late position (in the rare case of limping at all). I can see that it might be possible to get so many callers that the additional money in the pot is overcome by the reduction in the chance to win that pot. I've repeatedly read that AA and KK play well in both multiway pots and in limited pots.

I may never see an impact on my winrate from this. In about 10,000 hands I've had KK 43 times and I've limped those once or twice. It seems to me that the rarity means this cannot be a substantial leak, especially considering that KK will often hold up. This discussion will be somewhere in the back of my mind so it's likely I will avoid this limp in early position.

Oh, no! Not another learning experience!

arborman

01-07-2008, 09:24 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Posts: 300

Hmm, I can envision scenarioes where openlimping KK in CO or Button with aggressive blinds would be a handy play. But raising can be good too - because aggro blinds will likely see it as a steal and raise back at you.

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KK vs flopped Ace and a maniac

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