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KK with A on flop

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outphase

11-01-2005, 07:36 PM Post subject: KK with A on flop

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

I know I have to let this go, but if i didn't let it go on the turn, the pot was too big to fold on the river... Results to follow later.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with K

, K

. MP3 posts a blind of $2.
UTG raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 5 folds, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG caps, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14 SB) A

, 2

, 8

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) Q

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) J

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.

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HeavyP

11-01-2005, 07:45 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 187

With two people in the pot, you can bail this at the turn.

Fnord

11-01-2005, 07:56 PM

#3 (permalink)

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What the hell are you beating on the turn? river?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Ltrain

11-01-2005, 08:01 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Miami, Florida

Posts: 514

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavyP

With two people in the pot, you can bail this at the turn.

In most cases yes, unless you have a solid read UTG +1 is a maniac and UTG +2 will call down any mid to low pair. Bet the flop, if you are raised you have a clearer picture of what you are up against and can call, fold the turn UI if you don't pick up a K or backdoor flush draw. Checkraise won't work because they most likely have odds to call the additional bet.

If you don't fold the turn, I can't see calling the river. Any legitimate and boarderline capping hand except for 10,10; 9,9 (stretch) beats you, you split K,K, and you have to overcall UTG+2, which in most cases has at least A,x.

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

Kessler

11-01-2005, 08:34 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

I had a very similar hand play last night.

Playing 3/6 with an full kill. Kill button is active @ UTG+1. B&M Vegas cardroom. 5 bet cap. Table reads are loose passive. Almost all hands are getting called down to showdown, which is usually crap. Dealers are slow, so everyone is pretty much playing every hand.

Hero is SB with

"Great, Pocket Kings on a Killpot, I'm out of position, but it's still a big hand. Raise!"

UTG Calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, Hero Raises, BB Calls, UTG 3-bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, Hero 4-bets, BB calls, UTG caps, MP2 calls, Button Calls, Hero Calls, BB Calls.

"Wow, capped 5-way pre-flop. I might be in trouble here."
To the flop:

"Bah, A on the flop. That's what I didn't want to see."

Hero Checks, BB Checks, UTG Checks, MP2 bets, Button calls, Hero...........

The question here, is this pot big enough to chase a 2-outer? With 5 players capped prefop ($30 x 5 = $150 / $6 call = 25:1 on my money) Considering I'm about 22:1 to catch my set, do I call even though I'm probably way behind?

-Kessler

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

HeavyP

11-01-2005, 08:46 PM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 187

You cannot bet that flop in a capped pot against MORE than one opponent. At the turn in hand one What can you beat? If he has QQ JJ he has you beat, PLUS there's the guy calling down with ace ten or something bad.

In hand 2 of Kesslers: You can call on the flop getting 25:1 on your money to try to hit the king, on the turn you should bail. Even if they're showing down with garbage, that means they're entering with small aces and such.

Fnord

11-01-2005, 08:58 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavyP

You cannot bet that flop in a capped pot against MORE than one opponent.

Watch me bet that flop then still manage to check/fold the turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

euphoricism

11-01-2005, 09:14 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Im with fnord. Bet the flop. C/F turn unimproved.

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Ltrain

11-01-2005, 09:15 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Miami, Florida

Posts: 514

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavyP

Forget the turn and river cards, the decision you are making is on the flop. At 2/4 there are lots of players that will call lots of different hands with a preflop cap. UTG capped, UTG +2 made a two bet coldcall, which many fish will do down to A,Jo or any pocket pair more often than you would like.

After the flop, you must raise for information; a check is too weak and may even induce a bluff into a big pot. If we don't drive at least one person out with a flop bet or are raised, your beat now. However, like I said, you have odds to spike a K or pickup the nut backdoor flush draw. The turn is a different story...

Like fnord, not only could I find a check/fold unimproved on the turn against a flop raise or call to my bet, I would consider it a standard play and move to the next hand.

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

Fnord

11-01-2005, 09:19 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I check/fold this turn because QQ just got there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Ltrain

11-01-2005, 09:37 PM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Miami, Florida

Posts: 514

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I check/fold this turn because QQ just got there.

If it's queen of diamonds, I check call though.

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

outphase

11-01-2005, 10:59 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

UTG shows 22
UTG+1 shows A8
Hero knew he should've folded the turn but wonders why UTG caps with 22.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.

elipsesjeff

11-01-2005, 11:12 PM

#13 (permalink)

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elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

I hate having to fold big pairs with an Ace on the board, and it wasn't that long ago that i wouldn't fold them Headsup the majority of the time, even with that ace on the board. I find that when capping preflop, either you or someone else doing so, a bet on the flop is necessary because he is ONLY raising with the Ace here or the set (unless he is a complete idiot).

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Kessler

11-01-2005, 11:55 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

Sorry to confuse with my crossposting, but I was curious on what I should do. Considering that I had both black kings, and 2 diamonds on the board, I had a lot less options. No backdoor straight, no backdoor flush. It was either spike the set or not. I hate folding KK to an Ace on the board, but I know that's the right way to do it. It sucks, but I know KK comes around often and I should wait until I have a better board to work with. After all, it's nice to see the Ace on the Flop instead of on the River.

I called the Flop bet, Checked again on the

turn card, and folded to Mp2's bet.

River comes

Mp2 shows A7o, and UTG (who was all-in calling the turn bet) shows KTo for a runner-runner straight, drags the pot and fills 2 racks.

Re-thinking my steps, I could have saved half my stacks by just flat calling pre-flop and folding to the Ace flop bet. I feel that I UTG & Mp2's re-raising pre-flop was "gambling it up with me" because they wanted to push back on my aggression, but I still know I had the better hand pre-flop, so I felt justified. Yes/No?

-Kessler

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

Ltrain

11-02-2005, 12:16 AM

#15 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2005

Location: Miami, Florida

Posts: 514

Your fold on the turn Kessler looks fine, I think from your post you had odds for the two outer; fold the turn without the Set. With three people seeing a 5 cap one of the two has to have an ace.

The only thing I do differently is yell "shit" when I fold, see what hands they had, sit out a hand or two and go get a cup of coffee.

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

Fnord

11-02-2005, 01:08 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by outphase

Hero knew he should've folded the turn but wonders why UTG caps with 22.

People play bizare hands in strange ways. This is why all of the FOLD HE HAS A SET sillyness in the NLHE forum cracks me up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Demiparadigm

11-02-2005, 01:45 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Re-thinking my steps, I could have saved half my stacks by just flat calling pre-flop and folding to the Ace flop bet. I feel that I UTG & Mp2's re-raising pre-flop was "gambling it up with me" because they wanted to push back on my aggression, but I still know I had the better hand pre-flop, so I felt justified. Yes/No?

Results oriented much?

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Kessler

11-02-2005, 07:35 PM

#18 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

Demi,

That's my point, I'm trying not to be. I know to expect capping the flop, and then folding when the A hits. Chasing a set when I know I'm already beat is a bad habit.

-Kes

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

not2smart

11-02-2005, 08:20 PM

#19 (permalink)

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: I belong to the night... and to the hidden corners of every room in the house

Posts: 32

Im a new player.. so the advice I give must be considered in the light of that truth.

I would have bet out the flop to see what happened.

Scenario 1: call, call ... i would then bet out on the turn again.
(any scenario that has the pot not being raised, I would treat the same as above: call, fold/ fold, call)

Scenario 2: raise, call... i would then call the flop raise and plan a check/fold on the turn unless I got a K or a diamond.

Any other scenario that involves the pot being raised, I would fold the flop to. That is why I bet out the flop.. to get that info that Im beat.

The only reason I put the above exception was that in this case you have 2 factors working toward a call. First, your call closed the action thereby guaranteeing that the flop doesnt get 3bet. Second, you keep both players in to pay if you do hit.

Ninjas aren't just great warriors.. they are great people too!

pokerfanatic

11-02-2005, 11:45 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Join Date: Aug 2004

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stop being a pussy about it, bet the flop, c/f the turn unimproved your 3 bet against UTG Raise and UTG+2 along for the ride (bad cold calls by the way on UTG+2 part), and UTG Capping, I need reads on the cold calling donk and the UTG capper, if he is a rock I might play it way different then if he was a laggy maniac... and I know UTG+2 sucks at poker, 2 cold calls ha-ha, loose passive? He's no threat... so determine what UTG is doing and you save beats... or make them...

No reads however bet the flop, call a raise, and c/f the turn is actually a standard line given no reads...

“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

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