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KK in a big pot against heavy action

  
 
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AKQJ
Old 03-13-2009, 11:59 PM     Post subject: KK in a big pot against heavy action #1 (permalink)  

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AKQJ
This hand was played on $0.25-$0.50 on ipoker network (6 handed).

Preflop: Hero is BB with K K (6 players)
UTG raises, MP calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP caps, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop : (16.4 SB) 9 5 J (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP caps, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn : (14.7 BB) 2 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Button raises, Hero ???

What to do on the turn? I just started the session, so MP and Button were unknown. If I want to continue I think I will have to pay 4 BB on the turn and possible another 4 on the river. If I call 2 bets now I will commit to showdown I think. I usually go with big overpairs to showdown almost all time but now I don't know what to do. The pot is huge but MP and Button are in a raising war. Fold or call-down to see the showdown?
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DrivingDog
Old 03-14-2009, 12:13 AM #2 (permalink)  
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You've got a ZOMFG humungous pot and an overpair.

Button's action looks a lot like a set, doesn't it? Why else is he going bonkers? There's also decent chance MP has AA.

I think we can fold this. While I definitely expect to get flamed for that comment, I also expect to be right >95% of the time.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 03-14-2009, 12:39 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 No, I like a fold there as well.
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AKQJ
Old 03-14-2009, 03:23 PM #4 (permalink)  

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AKQJ
I'm happy that I'm not the only one who would fold there.
I folded the hand. MP had K Q and button had J 3 So button won this hand with a pair of Jacks.(but he lost in the next hands all he won in this hand).
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PlayinLdP
Old 03-31-2009, 01:47 PM #5 (permalink)  

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PlayinLdP
Am I missing something here? You have an overpair right! It's a crying call but one I wouldn't hesitate making even for 4 big bets on the river. Alot of draws have missed and it looks like it is, MP betting his Jacks for value. You could make a case for folding this in NL, but I would never in Limit. The pot is too big.
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Chopper
Old 03-31-2009, 05:53 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportsmen
Ipoker is strange network. 7 times from 9 I saw QQ>KK. So FOLD there
yeh, its obviously rigged....so fold on that advice alone.

i, honestly, dont fold here....yet. i dont want to see the turn get 3bet, but there's no guarantee it will, either. and, none of us know what will happen on the river, yet.

will it be expensive when we call down? yes. will it be expensive when we fold the best hand? yes. which is worse?

imo, folding the best hand in a gargantuan pot at a level where abc play is a figment of the imagination.

would you fold this at 2c/4c at stars? how about 10c/20c? sure, at 3/6 this is probably a fold w/o taking a breathalizer on these two, but 25c/50c rarely plays tougher than 10c/20c.

i expect to see J9 as often as i see QT here. and, for that, i cant fold until an A hits the river, or a draw completes, and the action still goes ballistic. but, i'm a donkey. i dont fold in 20BB pots (which is where this is likely headed) w/o my soul-reader working......and mine has been broken for a long time.

here's the main reason why, too. how did it feel to see a pair of J's take this pot AFTER you folded? how did it feel to see the chips slide over to an aggro-donk that you had CRUSHED the whole time? i make that mistake, too, but i would rather call off another few BB's when these turds are going at it.....if nothing else, for the future information they will give me. and, dont forget, there is still a 10% chance, or so, that you are best with the overpair in that 20BB pot.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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PlayinLdP
Old 04-01-2009, 12:34 PM #7 (permalink)  

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PlayinLdP
Quote:
imo, folding the best hand in a gargantuan pot at a level where abc play is a figment of the imagination.

would you fold this at 2c/4c at stars? how about 10c/20c? sure, at 3/6 this is probably a fold w/o taking a breathalizer on these two, but 25c/50c rarely plays tougher than 10c/20c.
Chopper your right. It is a huge mistake to fold the best hand on the turn or the river. If you to hope to achieve 2-3BB per hour you are going to have to make calls and pay off hands. You can't let anyone bully you around and steal big pots off you for 1 big bet. As far as I'm concerned TPTK and over pairs are monsters in 6 max and must be called even with 3 to a flush and/or straight boards. I even call if an Ace shows up on the river, the pot is just too big.

As for what limit you are playing 2c/4c or 3/6 I don't think your line changes too much. Actually, I am more likely to call in 3/6 because players are more capable of betting thin value hands and even bluffing with nothing.

Btw, I'm new here and I'm getting back into limit play. I would like to post some hands for discussion and critiquing. So far I'm very impressed with the content and I hope I can add some value.

Cheers.
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AKQJ
Old 04-01-2009, 03:52 PM #8 (permalink)  

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AKQJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayinLdP
Am I missing something here? You have an overpair right! It's a crying call but one I wouldn't hesitate making even for 4 big bets on the river. Alot of draws have missed and it looks like it is, MP betting his Jacks for value. You could make a case for folding this in NL, but I would never in Limit. The pot is too big.
Yes, you're right. In big pots I almost never fold an overpair without a clear read that I'm beat. In SSH there is an advice like this: if you make big pots preflop with a big overpair you are practically commited to the showdown. And I'm agree with this. But...in the day before that session I had a quite big downswing where all my hands were beaten. I've payed off my opponents with second-best hands a lot, and maybe I was influenced of that day. In hands like this against unknown players the default play is to call down. Relatively passive players can turn into aggressive ones if the pot is big (and they are right to do this).
It would have been interesting to here some "call-down" opinions before I posted the results (to be sure they were not results oriented) because the 2 posts before I posted the results said "fold was good" and after I posted the results everyone said "fold was bad".
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Chopper
Old 04-01-2009, 04:43 PM #9 (permalink)  
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ask asdpikas, or driving dog, if i would fold there. they'll confirm i can be quite the pay-off-wizard.....much to my detriment.

i try not to look at results before i post, but i slipped here. so, even though i respect the shit out of dog and benny, i had to go the other way.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 04-01-2009, 05:10 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 It's better to be cautious against two unknown opps when it's two bets back to you. Now that you have a read as to the level of their idiocy, you can safely apply that read against them and call/raise as appropriate.
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BennyLaRue
Old 04-14-2009, 03:20 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsc_87
all in with this cards
Word to the wise: Take the time to look at the forum you're posting in before you post. You might save yourself from getting banned.
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LawDude
Old 04-15-2009, 05:04 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKQJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayinLdP
Am I missing something here? You have an overpair right! It's a crying call but one I wouldn't hesitate making even for 4 big bets on the river. Alot of draws have missed and it looks like it is, MP betting his Jacks for value. You could make a case for folding this in NL, but I would never in Limit. The pot is too big.
Yes, you're right. In big pots I almost never fold an overpair without a clear read that I'm beat. In SSH there is an advice like this: if you make big pots preflop with a big overpair you are practically commited to the showdown. And I'm agree with this. But...in the day before that session I had a quite big downswing where all my hands were beaten. I've payed off my opponents with second-best hands a lot, and maybe I was influenced of that day. In hands like this against unknown players the default play is to call down. Relatively passive players can turn into aggressive ones if the pot is big (and they are right to do this).
It would have been interesting to here some "call-down" opinions before I posted the results (to be sure they were not results oriented) because the 2 posts before I posted the results said "fold was good" and after I posted the results everyone said "fold was bad".
I'm willing to fold in the proper situation (more willing than most limit players), but this is actually a pretty dry board for Kings. Yeah, it's possible that someone has 2 pair or a set (if they have 2 pair, then you have 8 outs, of course). But you see plenty of this sort of betting and raising with top pair or a draw.

Of course, it also matters who is doing it. A raise from an established nit needs to be treated a lot differently than a raise from a looser player.
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poker3player333
Old 05-09-2009, 04:23 PM #13 (permalink)  
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No the fold isn't a terrible play. The set looks pretty likely here.
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ademege
Old 05-09-2009, 11:22 PM #14 (permalink)  

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ademege
No, I like a fold there as well.
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cohenleonard
Old 05-14-2009, 07:59 PM #15 (permalink)  
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at these limits, (often atc), would it make sense to play flop as played and c/c turn and river due to the amt of players in the hand? it has the feel of aces or a set (or both) but i think i would be more worried about 2pair in the 4way pot at this level.
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arborman
Old 06-07-2009, 07:42 PM #16 (permalink)  
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arborman
Yesterday I folded KK in almost exactly this position multiway when an unknown 3bet the turn after capping pre and post flop. He took the hand without showing down, but 30 hands later he played exactly the same way with 66 unimproved to the river. That fold (probably) cost me a monster pot, with the new information.

Slow down if you must, but don't fold with a KK overpair unless you have reads that tell you clearly that you are beat.
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CRIPPY
Old 07-14-2009, 10:17 PM     Post subject: Fold #17 (permalink)  

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CRIPPY
I agree here the best action is folding. Any raising and reraising after the flop with a board like that makes me think someone has flopped a set. KK is behind for sure. Tough to lay down but it is the right thing to do.
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Vegastripreport
Old 07-15-2009, 04:10 AM #18 (permalink)  

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Vegastripreport
I'm going to go the other way, and advocate a crying call. Keep in mind the MP capped the action pre-flop. What set are you putting him on? It could only be Jacks – he didn’t four bet with nines! And I think Ace jack is a real possibility here.

Pot odds have me making crying calls to the bitter end, especially at micro limits where anybody could have anything.
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BigTVeno
Old 07-23-2009, 03:42 PM #19 (permalink)  

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BigTVeno
Gotta call to see the show down who knows board could pair to counterfit there 2 pair assuming thats what they hit
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arborman
Old 08-03-2009, 04:33 AM #20 (permalink)  
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arborman
Quote:
Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
It's better to be cautious against two unknown opps when it's two bets back to you. Now that you have a read as to the level of their idiocy, you can safely apply that read against them and call/raise as appropriate.
One was an idiot, but the other one had top pair and managed to push a killer hand out of the pot. In 6 max, I'm playing top pair pretty fast too - precisely because people often fold overpairs when facing bets.

The pot winner stunk preflop, but did well postflop. He won the pot when he shouldn't have, by being aggressive. In 6 max. Good for him.

And no, I don't ever fold an overpair in a huge pot, even if it's 2 back to me, unless I have specific reads about specific players. Especially in 6 max, where so many people have read that they need to be wild and aggressive.

In this case, it worked. He made an overpair fold.

Now that I'm re-reading the hand I can see he is one of those players who will call almost anything sooted or playable against a raise with some cold callers (while on the button). That can work for people if done right - I do it in the right circumstances.
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LawDude
Old 08-04-2009, 09:52 PM #21 (permalink)  
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I thought of this thread while playing this hand. Unfortunately, the hand history won't convert using the converter, so I will try to edit it down:

PokerStars Game #31250009519: Hold'em Limit ($0.25/$0.50 USD) - 2009/08/04 14:41:20 PT [2009/08/04 17:41:20 ET]
Table 'Neckar' 10-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Helga Kummer ($10.85 in chips)
Seat 2: BKÖJ ($25.45 in chips)
Seat 4: HERO ($11.50 in chips)
Seat 5: NB0769 ($12.55 in chips)
Seat 6: soysampe ($10.25 in chips)
Seat 7: kitty1000 ($3.75 in chips)
Seat 8: AKlRA ($15 in chips)
Seat 9: nerreswe ($2.15 in chips)
Seat 10: Boza ($12.20 in chips)
HERO: posts small blind $0.10
NB0769: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Kd Qd]
soysampe: folds
kitty1000: raises $0.25 to $0.50
AKlRA: folds
nerreswe: raises $0.25 to $0.75
Boza, Helga Kummer, BKÖJ: all fold
HERO: calls $0.65
NB0769: folds
kitty1000: raises $0.25 to $1
Betting is capped
nerreswe, HERO: both call $0.25
*** FLOP *** [5d Kc 9c]
HERO: checks
kitty1000: bets $0.25
nerreswe: raises $0.25 to $0.50
HERO: calls $0.50
kitty1000: raises $0.25 to $0.75
nerreswe, HERO: both call $0.25
*** TURN *** [5d Kc 9c] [3c]
HERO: checks
kitty1000: bets $0.50
nerreswe: calls $0.40 and is all-in
HERO: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [5d Kc 9c 3c] [3s]
HERO: checks
kitty1000: bets $0.50
HERO: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
kitty1000: shows [Ks Jh] (two pair, Kings and Threes)
HERO: shows [Kd Qd] (two pair, Kings and Threes - Queen kicker)
HERO collected $1.15 from side pot
nerreswe: mucks hand [As 9d]
HERO collected $6.40 from main pot
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