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Hermann the Lombard
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11-03-2007, 07:36 PM
Post subject: KK 3-bet on the flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K , K .
4 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, CO calls.
Flop: (7 SB) 2, T , 7 (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB 3-bets, Hero...
OK, I limped in because the table was folding so readily and also because I've been playing tighter than a...um, never mind. SB was less so: 28/14.1/5.33 (71 hands). A couple of notes, but none on his range for PFR or 3-bet: QTs BT checked flop with backdoor draws called turn bet/3-bet with gutshot & FD; K9s BT coldcalled PFR checked flop, called turn, checked river with bottom pair. In other words, aggressive postflop, not necessarily skillfully.
Will I be leaving value on the table if I call down from here?
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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call and raise turn, your hand is underepped, he has JJ+, you're beating his range.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Once it's raised preflop by SB I would 3bet. You don't want CO coming in cheap with Ace-trash, and you've got loads of equity with the second best possible starting hand.
As played i also call flop 3bet and raise turn.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
As played i also call flop 3bet and raise turn.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
call and raise turn, your hand is underepped, he has JJ+, you're beating his range.
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Underepped??
BTW, I see the point about 3-betting PF.
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Oh, no! Not another learning experience!
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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the strength of your hand is under-represented due to the fact that you limp/call PF. Therefore, he cannot put you on as strong of a holding as you have.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Not sure why you limped the KK preflop unless you expected one of the other players to raise for you (allowing you to 3bet and get max value in while ahead).
As played, I think SB is c-betting his ace high (AJ, AK, AQ) hand, or possibly has JJ+ There is a slim chance he has TT, but not enough at this point to panic. He may also be pumping a flush draw - 3 players is just enough in the hand to do so profitably (since a flush draw completes about 1/3 of the time by the river). In which case you want him to pay for it on flop and turn.
I call and raise the turn unless it is an ace. If it is an ace or a heart and he checks to you, check behind and make a decision on the river for 1BB.
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Jibalob
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out of my roll
Posts: 512
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Is sb likely to put you on a draw here due to your betting patterns on previous hands?
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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If everyone's folding because you're playing tight, consider raising some medium hands like JT, A7, etc. 0.75 BB profit (if everyone folds) is more than those hands can expect to make anyways.
I never limp-raise (i never open-limp period), but if I did AA or AK would be the only hands i'd do it with. I don't want some donk limping after me with A2 and hitting the flop unless I got AA.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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Hmm...a bunch of open items.
arborman: The previous time I raised I think everyone folded and KK is worth more than 0.75 bets. Basically I was mixing it up a little in the midst of my squeaky-tight experiment.
d.d.: At that point I was experimenting with an ultra-tight style knowing full well that it was in no way optimum poker. JT and A7 were out of the question except from the BB. Disregarding that experiment (which is over but might be revived for bonus-clearing purposes at a higher level) I open limp quite a bit. In middle position that would include 99-22 with sufficient limpers, maybe JJ-TT if not first-in, A9s-A7s, Axs with one or more limpers, and suited connectors to 98s with sufficient limpers (the weaker the connectors the more limpers required).
Jib: probably not as I wasn't playing drawing hands except from the BB (unless you think of KTs+ from LP as a drawing hand...I don't).
I understand now about under-representing my hand, thanks.
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Oh, no! Not another learning experience!
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard
d.d.: At that point I was experimenting with an ultra-tight style knowing full well that it was in no way optimum poker. JT and A7 were out of the question except from the BB. Disregarding that experiment (which is over but might be revived for bonus-clearing purposes at a higher level) I open limp quite a bit. In middle position that would include 99-22 with sufficient limpers, maybe JJ-TT if not first-in, A9s-A7s, Axs with one or more limpers, and suited connectors to 98s with sufficient limpers (the weaker the connectors the more limpers required).
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By 'open-limp' i mean limping as the first one to enter the pot (that's the common usage of the term FYI)
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Just cap the flop.
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
By 'open-limp' i mean limping as the first one to enter the pot (that's the common usage of the term FYI)
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Ah, sorry, I was forgetting...and I open-limp a range of hands that would probably horrify you. 
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