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KJ offsuit late position (Worst. Hand. Ever.)

  
 
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dumbmrblah
Old 05-24-2006, 07:59 PM     Post subject: KJ offsuit late position (Worst. Hand. Ever.) #1 (permalink)  

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UTG calls, 2 folds, MP calls, 2 folds,

Hero raises with

SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop:

SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets, all call.

Turn:

SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds,

UTG raises, MP folds, Hero re-raises, SB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, SB calls.

River:

UTG goes all in for 5, Hero calls, SB raises, Hero calls.

(A note on the river play: I know how horrible it was, believe me I do, however at 3/6 people are idiots, and I have to be right in folding this almost 95% of the time to make it a correct fold.)

Preflop I don't always raise with KJ off in this position, I actually don't like the move. But I did, and it led to this disaster, so yeah, who knows. The turn is the question, I'll post my reasons later, but I wanted to get some thoughts first.
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Rondavu
Old 05-24-2006, 08:16 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Your only mistake was 3-betting the turn.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Fnord
Old 05-24-2006, 09:56 PM #3 (permalink)  
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No stakes or table texture given.

Pre-flop is a really easy call unless you think you can fold out the blinds. KJo isn't an edge hand multi-way. Just calling allows you to get maximum value out of your position and gives you room to make laydowns when you think you're beat without risking as big of a mistake.

Turn 3-bet depends on game texture, although it looks like the c/r is at least 2 pair. I think you ran into a couple bigger hands here if this is a typical loose/passive game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Xanadu
Old 05-24-2006, 10:32 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Without a read on UTG, you need to put him on a reasonable range of hands. Third to act on the flop, he checked, so top pair or 2pair are very unlikely. Only a total donk would slow play a raised pot here with that kind of hand. I'm thinking AT just hit the straight or AJ of spades is raising second pair top kicker with nut flush + nut straight draws. This is a good spot to just call down unless you hit the boat on the river. You are definitely correct that you must call the river ... people show down enough worthless crap at any level to fold a pot that big even though you are probably 90% sure SB just made the flush.
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Fnord
Old 05-24-2006, 10:34 PM #5 (permalink)  
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UTG has T9
Although maybe I'm giving him too much credit and they're unsuited....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 05-24-2006, 10:39 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Bay 101, 6/12 (because I love the 1/3 format)

A couple limpers, I call with KJo from the HJ, CO and BN call too, SB completes and we're gambling!

CO is a Muppet.
BN is a Dealer who plays too loose and a little passive but otherwise has a clue and certainly knows CO is a Muppet.
My table image is tight, probably passive but that's tougher to gauge.

Flop is J83, checked to me and I bet. CO + BN and maybe someone else calls.

Turn is a T. I bet CO + BN call, maybe someone else.

River is a T. I bet, CO calls, BN raises, folded to me and I muck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-24-2006, 10:51 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Yeah, its something you probably wouldnt do online but live its only obvious to do so. Although, I love betting my straight draws and having people fold top pair when the 3 flush comes in....


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Xanadu
Old 05-24-2006, 11:03 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Yeah, its something you probably wouldnt do online but live its only obvious to do so. Although, I love betting my straight draws and having people fold top pair when the 3 flush comes in....
Exactly what Ed Miller recommends as a bluff against aware players after a free card play ... when the obvious draw comes in, bet, even if it isn't your draw.
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Fnord
Old 05-24-2006, 11:05 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Yeah, but once it becomes clear you're an sTAgg short-handed specialist who's probably slumming down to my stakes (at a live table) to gamble, you don't get tight top pair and over-pair folds from me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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dumbmrblah
Old 05-25-2006, 12:53 AM #10 (permalink)  

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Sorry about the lack of info on table texture and limit. It was 3/6 (I actually said this at the bottom, but it should have been at the top), and the table was playing pretty standard. Lots of passive play, some aggressive players, but not too many.

I don't have enough hands to have any idea what either one is going to do.

He limped UTG, I figured he had to have something decent. AJ, AT, KJ, QJ, KQ or pocket tens all seem likely. KT, QT, or JT are also possibilities, but not as likely. Then again, who knows what someone's playing at 3/6.

Caling my bet on the flop doesn't mean much if he's passive, which I guess I should assume all players are at 3/6. He might have a queen and be scared I have a better kicker. Who knows what's going through his head.

On the turn he clearly likes the king. Either that or he had qj and decided to wait for the turn to pop it. I realize I'm in big trouble here to AT alot. I just figure I'm ahead sometimes too. I don't have to be ahead every time to make my reraise worth it. I'm trying to shut out SB, who might as well hang a sign around his neck with the words flush draw on it. He didn't fold, but I still think it was worth a shot. Once he reraises I know I'm drawing to 2 outs, but unfortunately it's too late at that point, and I feel like I have to call down. If that flush draw misses I call down for two more big bets, since it hit it costs me three.

In retrospect I probably shouldn't have raised, but if UTG merely has top pair with a straight draw then it's a great raise and if UTG only has top pair with a straight and a flush draw then it's an okay raise.

I think if I knew UTG was a great player then it would have been a decent play, as it was, I regretted it as soon as I did it.

Just for your edification, SB took down the hand with 3-7 of spades.
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Fnord
Old 05-25-2006, 01:08 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbmrblah
He limped UTG, I figured he had to have something decent. AJ, AT, KJ, QJ, KQ or pocket tens all seem likely. KT, QT, or JT are also possibilities, but not as likely. Then again, who knows what someone's playing at 3/6.
*Any* pocket pair, any 2 broadway, suited Ace, maybe a suited King, Suited connectors, maybe suited 1-2 gappers, maybe unsuited connector. Don't discount AK/JJ+ out of his range either.

So pretty much anything until you can further narrow down is range and pre-flop habbits. You're certainly giving him too tight of a range. No fucking way anyone in this game folds 22 UTG, for starters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbmrblah
I'm trying to shut out SB, who might as well hang a sign around his neck with the words flush draw on it. He didn't fold, but I still think it was worth a shot. Once he reraises I know I'm drawing to 2 outs, but unfortunately it's too late at that point, and I feel like I have to call down. If that flush draw misses I call down for two more big bets, since it hit it costs me three.

In retrospect I probably shouldn't have raised, but if UTG merely has top pair with a straight draw then it's a great raise and if UTG only has top pair with a straight and a flush draw then it's an okay raise.
Assume any flush draw is calling any number of bets in any sized pot and probably even when the board is paired. Then accept that this isn't a huge mistake if not correct post-flop play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbmrblah
I think if I knew UTG was a great player then it would have been a decent play, as it was, I regretted it as soon as I did it.
Why? I sure as hell wouldn't fold anything I'd play like that in that game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbmrblah
Just for your edification, SB took down the hand with 3-7 of spades.
Did UTG show? SB is pretty easy to put on the flush, in a smaller pot you have a better chance of getting away to these guy's stupid-tight raising standards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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dumbmrblah
Old 05-25-2006, 01:15 AM #12 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Why? I sure as hell wouldn't fold anything I'd play like that in that game.
I didn't expect a fold, but a better player would be more likely to raise with a hand that's behind me, such as top pair plus a draw.

I realize the play was a mistake, and I should have assumed the flush draw would call regardless.

UTG didn't show sadly.
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