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a kick in the nuts, but rate my pre-river play please...
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YuujiA
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02-15-2008, 11:36 PM
Post subject: a kick in the nuts, but rate my pre-river play please...
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 25
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This one really hurt. But I want to know if it was right to check on the flop... I knew if I bet out right I would be giving a flush draw good odds. Just trying to get the fundamentals down... boo to the lost money though
Full Tilt 0.25/0.5 Hold'em (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7 , 7 .
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.
Flop: (5.40 SB) A , 2, 7 (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, CO raises, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero 3-bets, MP3 calls, CO calls.
Turn: (7.20 BB) 2 (3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, MP3 caps, CO folds, Hero calls.
River: (20.20 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.1 (All-In), MP3 calls.
Final Pot: 20.60 BB
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YuujiA
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 25
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oh yeah i lost to pocket 2s
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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I usually just bet out on the flop, but a checkraise can work - if you think someone is going to raise behind you. It can backfire if it gets checked through.
The line is 'if you don't lose a lot of money when you lose with a set, you didn't play it right'. So don't sweat the occasional quads - you will lose more in the long run by worrying about quads and slowing down than actually to people with quads. Especially when you have a full house.
By the way, you should never be going 'all-in' while playing Limit. Make sure you have enough in your stack to cap every street (12 Big Bets usually), because when the opportunity comes up and you hold the nuts, you want to maximize your value.
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YuujiA
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 25
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okay... i wasn't worried about the quads but more about the flush draw on the flop. I knew betting out would still price in somebody on the draw. obviously on the turn it didnt matter anymore... well at least it seemed
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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My Aces full of Kings got clobbered by quad Kings. I feel your pain.
If you're lucky when you check the bet comes from your immediate right, not your immediate left, then your raise puts the rest of them calling two cold. However, with no pre-flop raise you're taking a big chance that it will check through (somewhat read-dependent, of course).
Another way to look at it is that your bet may still give them odds to draw to the flush, but if you don't draw they have infinite odds to draw.
Yes, you might do better waiting for the turn to raise but usually you should play your sets as fast as possible, except possibly really big sets like kings and aces...and maybe even then.
Oh, and don't post results, or at least not until everyone has had time to reply.
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Oh, no! Not another learning experience!
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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When you have a killer hand like a set, you want the draws to call. It hurts when they complete and win the pot, but you have the most equity in the pot - the biggest chance of winning it. So you want it to be a big pot.
In small pots you want to chase out the draws, and it sucks more when they call incorrectly and win. But in a big pot when you are a big leader, you want to keep them in to maximize value.
This is a concept I continue to struggle with, of course, because it hurts when that back door flush completes on the river, but it is important.
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YuujiA
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 25
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But if I bet and they call, they are making a positive gain. Since probability is a zero sum game, that means I am making a negative gain right?
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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With one opponent, if you have a set and your opponent has a flush draw you are about 70% favourite to win on the flop (because 2-3 of their outs give you a boat or quads). So when you bet and they call, theoretically speaking you are winning 70% of the additional money they put into the pot. Raise and cap happily.
If the turn does not complete their draw you are now ~80% to win the pot. So them calling your bet, regardless of the actual outcome, is an 80% profit for you. Raise and cap happily because they are really only drawing to 7 outs, while you are drawing to 10 and are ahead.* ~1/4 of the time their draw completes it gives you a boat as well, so you can wring maximum value from their hand. The 80% of times they don't complete they are likely to fold UI, so you will regret not maximizing your value on earlier streets.
It is possible, in a large pot, for them to be calling correctly (with their 20% equity) and you to be betting and raising correctly. It is even correct for them to raise and cap if the pot is big enough. You are still going to win more often and your equity is the most, therefore you need to maximize the size of the pot.
*They have 9 outs to complete the draw, but 2 of them would pair the board and give you a boat, and one might give you quads (unless you hold one of the flush cards, in which case they only have 6 clean outs and only 13% pot equity).
More players in the pot complicates the math a little, but you are still a strong favourite to win it and should bet and raise at every opportunity.
The only time to slow down pre-river, and you probably shouldn't even do that, is when a flush or straight completes on the turn. You still have 10 outs to the nuts - which means you have about 22% equity in the pot. If the pot is more than 5BB you have outs to call, and if it is more than 10BB you have enough equity to raise profitably (though it hurts).*
Calling or raising is also read dependent to some extent, though not much in these situations.
On the flip side, if you think your opponent holds a set and you are chasing a draw, you have a case of reverse implied odds with some of your outs, and should probably be more careful than most players are with their flush draws.
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sinky
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SCOTLAND
Posts: 295
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by arborman
In small pots you want to chase out the draws, and it sucks more when they call incorrectly and win. But in a big pot when you are a big leader, you want to keep them in to maximize value.
This is a concept I continue to struggle with, of course, because it hurts when that back door flush completes on the river, but it is important.
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I do not agree with this. Maybe it is just the way it is worded. In a small pot you should try to get maximum value from your opponents. In a big pot you should do everything you can to win the pot even if that means you are losing some value.
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arborman
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sinky
I do not agree with this. Maybe it is just the way it is worded. In a small pot you should try to get maximum value from your opponents. In a big pot you should do everything you can to win the pot even if that means you are losing some value.
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Good point, I think I worded it wrongly. My point was that in both cases you should be betting and raising when you are ahead, which you almost always are when you have a set.
But having them call your raises when they are drawing is fine too, though painful when they complete. But most of the time they don't.
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