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ponyboy
Old 11-03-2008, 09:17 PM     Post subject: Just want input on strategies #1 (permalink)  
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So far in my LHE adventure at micro limits you run into a TON of calling stations. People will call to the river with pretty much any draw and average table is about 35% of people seeing a flop (at Stars).

The immediate difficulty I'm having is these guys who call all the way to the river with nothing but a draw. Raising more preflop doesn't seem to help because they call anyway. And betting harder doesn't help because they just check/call to the river.

Strategy 1: Tighten up. Yes or no? I find blind stealing can't happen because in LP raising still gets 3 callers. I'm opening/closing up my range depending on number of callers and position at the same time. Correct?

I'm also note taking like crazy because a lot of showdowns happen and I'm astounded at what I see but I guess this is to be expected at these limits.
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asdpikas
Old 11-04-2008, 03:55 AM #2 (permalink)  
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tighten up just slightly, or not at all
just value bet them to death whenever you hit and give up when you whiff
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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ponyboy
Old 11-04-2008, 09:29 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I'm rereading Small Stakes Hold 'Em and it's bringing back a lot of theory I had lost along the way. Thanks for the input.
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:28 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Why tighten up? Your K2s will hit a top pair that you can value bet against their straight draws all day
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Ragnar4
Old 11-05-2008, 06:35 PM #5 (permalink)  
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K2s is talked about in SSH concerning loose passive games, but it's VERY solid about one point. If you flop a king, be VERY willing to get muck if you meet any resistance on the flop.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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Chopper
Old 11-05-2008, 10:54 PM #6 (permalink)  
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if you play stations regularly, you still need to be aggressive. you need to use the free card moves and free showdown moves with speculative hands. you need to overlimp and isolate wider ranges. you need to take initiative with anything you like post flop and keep betting until you get raised.

A60, STEAL THAT BLIND! because you can still value town 89s that will cold call from the sb when you hit an A T J two tone board.

78s, limp it behind or steal when opening late.

these guys will call with all sorts of crap. why not encourage it to continue? dont bluff, dont even semibluff often, unless HU and you feel you have a chance of getting folds.

AKs in raised pot and position, you have T 4 8r board, you check behind or fold to a bet w/o good odds. and, even then it may be best to fold.

just take them to town when you have the best of it, and dont play otherwise........PROFIT.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 11-06-2008, 12:24 AM #7 (permalink)  
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what Chopper said! Well said!
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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Chopper
Old 11-06-2008, 12:30 AM #8 (permalink)  
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first and foremost, i learn from the best...FTR and miller/stox.

secondly, well trained in station play at cake 25/50c - 50/1.

btw, in case you see this, DDog, you have to get your ass over to Cake. the limits you play, i cant yet touch. Korn, too. i saw a 3/6 table running 44%+ for 3+ hours today. 6way in a raised pot was not uncommon. i was so tempted to sit in and take a shot, but my roll and psyche cant handle AA getting cracked for $75 at that level....yet.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 11-06-2008, 02:57 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
first and foremost, i learn from the best...FTR and miller/stox.

secondly, well trained in station play at cake 25/50c - 50/1.

btw, in case you see this, DDog, you have to get your ass over to Cake. the limits you play, i cant yet touch. Korn, too. i saw a 3/6 table running 44%+ for 3+ hours today. 6way in a raised pot was not uncommon. i was so tempted to sit in and take a shot, but my roll and psyche cant handle AA getting cracked for $75 at that level....yet.
You ARE the micro stakes expert for this forum Chopper!
i'm learning low stakes...
Dog's the dude for low and mid stakes!

time ago i used to have all the microstakes specific strategies in mind but they are being replaced for other strategies used higher up, and you clearly are mastering the levels you play Chopper (u doing good maaaan! i'll probably meet you at 2/4 pretty soon)
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Old 11-06-2008, 03:05 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
K2s is talked about in SSH concerning loose passive games, but it's VERY solid about one point. If you flop a king, be VERY willing to get muck if you meet any resistance on the flop.
of course, but "calls" are not resistance!
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ponyboy
Old 11-06-2008, 12:26 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
if you play stations regularly, you still need to be aggressive. you need to use the free card moves and free showdown moves with speculative hands. you need to overlimp and isolate wider ranges. you need to take initiative with anything you like post flop and keep betting until you get raised.

A60, STEAL THAT BLIND! because you can still value town 89s that will cold call from the sb when you hit an A T J two tone board.

78s, limp it behind or steal when opening late.

these guys will call with all sorts of crap. why not encourage it to continue? dont bluff, dont even semibluff often, unless HU and you feel you have a chance of getting folds.

AKs in raised pot and position, you have T 4 8r board, you check behind or fold to a bet w/o good odds. and, even then it may be best to fold.

just take them to town when you have the best of it, and dont play otherwise........PROFIT.
Thanks for the awesome feedback - just need to clarify a couple of things:

Free card play - you mean raising preflop/flop in the intention of checking for a free card on the flop/turn since you will likely get checked to?

Blind stealing at my limits I'm finding just doesn't happen - very rare but with good position playing you can assure yourself of having the best of it with something like A6o when an ace hits. Correct?

I never bluff. I have learned you can't bluff people who don't know enough to fold. Is this bad?
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asdpikas
Old 11-06-2008, 12:32 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
if you play stations regularly, you still need to be aggressive. you need to use the free card moves and free showdown moves with speculative hands. you need to overlimp and isolate wider ranges. you need to take initiative with anything you like post flop and keep betting until you get raised.

A60, STEAL THAT BLIND! because you can still value town 89s that will cold call from the sb when you hit an A T J two tone board.

78s, limp it behind or steal when opening late.

these guys will call with all sorts of crap. why not encourage it to continue? dont bluff, dont even semibluff often, unless HU and you feel you have a chance of getting folds.

AKs in raised pot and position, you have T 4 8r board, you check behind or fold to a bet w/o good odds. and, even then it may be best to fold.

just take them to town when you have the best of it, and dont play otherwise........PROFIT.
Thanks for the awesome feedback - just need to clarify a couple of things:

Free card play - you mean raising preflop/flop in the intention of checking for a free card on the flop/turn since you will likely get checked to?

Blind stealing at my limits I'm finding just doesn't happen - very rare but with good position playing you can assure yourself of having the best of it with something like A6o when an ace hits. Correct?

I never bluff. I have learned you can't bluff people who don't know enough to fold. Is this bad?
1.yes, postflop mostly, but can be done PF on the button with JTs kinda hands after several limpers.
2.yes, totally
3.not bad. Sometimes you can try a bluff if HU, never get too fancy though, play totally straightforward ABC poker. Bet for value good hands and monster draws, raise to isolate/thin the field postflop with marginal hands, draw to normal draws when the odds are correct...

Most important thing i remember from the micros is:
REMEMBER RELATIVE POSITION

GL!
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Chopper
Old 11-06-2008, 02:15 PM #13 (permalink)  
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free card/showdown play... i NEVER go for free cards on the flop. the bets are too cheap there. i try for free cards when the bets double. and, i mix it up. if i feel i am best, i try to maintain initiative and may check behind the river (initiative is extremely important against draw chasers). if i feel i want to see two cards and can forego some value because i havent paired, or if i am hoping for the gutshot, i will go for free turn, and decided what to do on river. my problem is that free turns often induce bluffs on rivers. so, keep that in mind. you can use that to your advantage. bottom line: mix it up. dont always take free turns. sometimes raise vulnerable hands on flop to get free cards later. you will be surprised at the times they do fold....its more often than you think.

blind stealing DOES happen. you may not be viewing it like i do. there are two, sometimes three steps to a blind steal, and they are SO profitable. you can win it outright, you can get lots of folds with cbets (provided you arent betting every flop), and you can 2 barrel. you only have to pay attention to the player and the board. dont do it if you've seen a guy call down with Ahi. dont do it if you arent HU. but, pay attention to the players that fold flops and KILL them with cbets. (i find in limit, a cbet almost always requires two barrels.) but, remember, these are NOT always bluffs. sometimes you are best with Ahi. and, sometimes you catch.....thats the best! dont slow down if you catch. dont try and sneak in a check/raise....it tips your hand after awhile.

you can bluff ANYONE. it just doesnt always work. and, in limit, i wouldnt bluff w/o some degree of potential, unless we are going into a HU blind war...then, all bets are off (i may bluff my ass off). but, you definitely must know WHO you are bluffing. i label people "rvr flder", "2barrels", "3bet/donk", "chaser", "calls Ahi"....stuff like that. you have to know WHO they are, and when is a time to bluff each of them.

when is a time to bluff, you ask? imo, when you have initiative. and, when you see scare cards. lets say you hold KQo, and whiff the flop against a call station...flop is 9 7 4two hearts and you hold none. i am cbetting that sometimes. why? i have 6 outs to the better hand against a station that will pay me off. but, it is critical to look for good turns to sell your bluff...errr, semibluff. say, the turn is the 8, i am not firing. i will likely check behind or fold to a donk bet. however, if the turn is an A, i hit it again. that A is a scary card for a station. he probably has you on AK anyway. if the flush card hits, i likely fire at that, too. if the turn pairs the board, i definitely fire at that.

notice in all the examples i am betting i still have potential. if the station raise me, i strongly reconsider and likely fold right there. they dont have the balls to raise me out of spite. very often. but, if i do get called, i likely still have 6 outs and can always check behind the river or c/f. Khi isnt great agaisnt a station. but, he will pay off when you hit with his 33 or his Ahi almost everytime.

thats profitable.

hope that helps. sorry it got long.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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ponyboy
Old 11-06-2008, 07:13 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
hope that helps. sorry it got long.
Dude, you can go as long as you want. I think I just learned more in four paragraphs than in two years on the beginners' forum.
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Chopper
Old 11-06-2008, 07:40 PM #15 (permalink)  
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oh, and against stations, protecting your hand is overrated.

here is something fun i was working on for another FTR guy awhile back. i kept finding myself giving him generic tips in emails.

i call it "Rules of Engagement" and i find it pretty useful to remind myself frequently, along with my specific hand ranges....


rule #1...turn raises mean business. almost EVERY time. and tend to chill out when you get one in the face. if you have two pair beat, and nothing obvious is out there, you can stay a bit frisky. but, if the board is flushy, your straight isnt worth capping all streets with anymore.

rule #2...dont bet/raise like a monkey to blow others off a hand if you have no potential whatsoever. you need to have at least a backdoor combo draw, or mid pair to try and blow them out. you need outs to come to your rescue sometimes. dont go wild w/o outs. but, when you are going nuts, be aware of scare cards that dont help you whatsoever, but look like they helped something you are representing. (that last one is golden)

rule #3....dont fold the river in 10+BB pots for 1BB. if you bet and they raise, maybe thats a different version of "one more bet," but not for a check/call, or villain leading out and you calling.

rule #4...for pp's, just remember...5:1 preflop. and, dont take them too far postflop, unless you can get the pot HU against a player prone to bluff or 3barrel overcards.

rule #5...i see bluffs/draws raise flops and turns quite frequently, but i dont see them 3bet. 3betting is a real hand.

rule #6...dont fold when its HU preflop w/o a read. if you have as little as a face card, call down or check behind, but dont fold. (this one is golden for any metagame that goes on when you are the table's aggressor.)

rule #7...take your ego out of the game. ego = losing poker! be patient and let the situation come to you; dont force it because you "hate that guy."

rule #8...dont fear the 3-card boards until raised. however, be very afraid of the 4-card boards...be very afraid.

rule #9...stations are great at calling, but suck at bluffing. they always seem to pick the wrong time. they will overplay trips on flushy boards making you think full house. they will overplay their hand when it just got countered. they suck at bluffing because they so rarely do it. but, when they do, they do it wrong. sniff these out and you absolutely OWN them.

rule #10...a lot of this changes as you move up. your job is to decide which of these becomes more true and which becomes less true.


thanks to all this tippage today, i have certainly brought on the 200bb cooler i've so anxiously been waiting for.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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