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RiverMonkey
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03-02-2005, 06:34 PM
Post subject: JTo OTB, or in LP against many limpers
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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In another thread (http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...250&highlight=), it was suggested that JTo should be folded when you are on the button and faced with many limpers ahead of you.
Fnord/Hyper/Jeff/others, I'd be very interested in your thoughts on this.
Do we all agree that JTs is one of the best drawing hands mostly because of it's ability to make so many str8s (and it's suitedness of course)?
If so, then wouldn't JTo on the button be worth a limp to see if you spike a strong str8 draw, two pair or a pat-str8? Especially against many limpers? You're getting good odds to see the flop. If you don't spike a str8, two-pair or a strong draw you just get er' go.
(BTW, Abdul Jalib (PosEV) even advocates opening on the button with 98o!)
My gut tells me that if you are willing to limp in with JTo from OTB/LP, then you have to play a VERY solid post-flop game and for example, often be willing to fold a smalller str when the nut-str8 is a very likely holding by another opponent. Another example would be having to play a spiked pair of Js w/ T-kicker very cautiously (i.e. fold to any bet to you) and beware of overcards.
Lastly, what do we mean by 'many' limpers? .... If it's agreed that JTo is ok to limp with from the button or in LP, then what would be the minimum # of limpers you'd require to under-write this 'loose' call?
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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the main thing that people miss about JT is that when it does make a straight, it is the nuts, period.
i never fold JT suited or not when i'm in position. JTs is a very easy raise vs many limpers.
i do agree though that limping JTo early position is probably -EV, but limping JTs i think is +EV, as long as you can at least 2 limpers until someone late position raises.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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That's true re: the nut-str8 ... the only way you can lose when you have a JT holding and a str8 is that it gets counterfeited by the board and someone holds overcards to make a higher str8.
Just to be clear, I was referring to LP not EP. I think JTo in EP is a really easy fold.
I just checked:
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...php?players=10
The global (all limits $1/2 thru $10/20) show JTo is slightly EV -ve from LP and OTB. However interestingly if you look at JTo from the button in only $10/20 games, it's EV +'ve.
Key point, I think that in general we have to be careful about using those EV numbers. Why? Well, because they are actual numbers from real live games averaged over limits from $1/2 to $10/20 , and therefore they represent an average over how all players played that particular hand. I'd suggest that the average is brought down by the higher number of bad players playing at the lower limits where that kind of holding is likely to be played poorly on average.
I'm not saying those EV-numbers aren't informative or useful, I just think that if you have strong post-flop skills, you can beat some of those numbers.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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all the points that monkey made about the dangers of post-flop play w JTo apply equally to JTs.
i'll play it on the button with 4 callers plus the blinds.
ChezJ
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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If everyone played pretty good poker, KT/QT/JT offsuit would be paying off everyone else in a multi-pot. If it's raised pre-flop you're screwed. However, our opponents often suck badly enough that it can be +EV to limp these hands from the CO/Button depending on the rake structure and how much better of a post-flop player you are. I used to always play this hands for a limp from these positions, but have since become more selective.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I used to always play this hands for a limp from these positions, but have since become more selective.
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Do you think you've become more selective primarily because you are playing tougher opponents and your post-flop edge isn't as great as it was at lower limits, or do you think it has more do with the fact that you've come to appreciate the true innate lack of value of those hands?
Are there specific situations where you still consider playing them on the button or CO?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
Are there specific situations where you still consider playing them on the button or CO?
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When the limpers are loose and play like dogshit post-flop. You're in the best shape when they're loose and raise a wide range of hands. When a player like that limps they either have crap or AA/KK. Heck, if it's a single limper then raise from the Button or CO (if the button is tight.)
If a tight player that doesn't raise a lot limps I'm less inclined to play. Also, if my other windows are busy I'm less inclined to play.
Thanks to Playerview, etc. a lot of my close pre-flop decisions are driven by who's in the hand. If someone is dumping money, I want to play marginal holdings against them before someone else takes their money.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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JTo is just about an autofold for me unless I'm in the blinds. I only play it and such tables that are really that bad, as fnord said. Most tables at Party aren't that bad, Pacific however, this could be an easy limp.
Don't underestimate the factor of suitedness of JTs, in fact, that is its #1 quality. I will limp JTs until I get to LP, then I will usually raise. Your thinking of folding a pair of jacks to one bet is flawed here. You should either check/call check/call river bet, or raise the flop. Be wary of overs though, so I prefer to raise.
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Your thinking of folding a pair of jacks to one bet is flawed here.
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I don't think I said fold a pair of Js .. I think I said you have to play them cautiously, and that you need to beware of overcards.
By the way, I just set myself up with PlayerView last night .... It's sweet ... In addition to the over-layed stats, I also like the pop-up stats feature.
Now if I can just figure out how to avoid having it obscure my cards (when showing my stats - easy solution is to turn that off), and more importantly shown-down opponents' cards. A little bit of an inconvenience.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Your thinking of folding a pair of jacks to one bet is flawed here.
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Now if I can just figure out how to avoid having it obscure my cards (when showing my stats - easy solution is to turn that off), and more importantly shown-down opponents' cards. A little bit of an inconvenience. |
had the same problem, I had to play around with the Layout template to do so.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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RiverMonkey
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Hey Chi, Do you remember which specific layout parameters you adjusted so that you can still see your opponents' cards at showdown?
(mods, please feel free to move this sub-thread to the poker-tools forum)
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