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JJ nasty flop

  
 
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sinky
Old 02-05-2009, 12:17 PM     Post subject: JJ nasty flop #1 (permalink)  
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SB is Chopper.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, J
Hero raises, 3 folds, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, SB calls

Flop: (9 SB) A, 7, K (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero folds

Total pot: $3.25 (6.5 BB) | Rake: $0.15

Giving him a preflop 3 bet range of 77+,ATs+,KJs,AJo+,KQ.
If he donks his whole range on the flop I have 27% equity. If he is likely to c/f 88,99,TT then I am screwed. At the time folding to his initial flop bet seemed awful weak, so I raised.
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DrivingDog
Old 02-05-2009, 01:00 PM     Post subject: Re: JJ nasty flop #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinky
SB is Chopper.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, J
Hero raises, 3 folds, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, SB calls

Flop: (9 SB) A, 7, K (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero folds

Total pot: $3.25 (6.5 BB) | Rake: $0.15

Giving him a preflop 3 bet range of 77+,ATs+,KJs,AJo+,KQ.
If he donks his whole range on the flop I have 27% equity. If he is likely to c/f 88,99,TT then I am screwed. At the time folding to his initial flop bet seemed awful weak, so I raised.
You're giving him a very wide range. Really who 3bets an UTG raise with KJs from the SB?

I'd put him more on something like 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQ+

This is an easy fold on the flop against a reasonably tight player. The only things you're ahead of are 99-TT. Just let it go.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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sinky
Old 02-05-2009, 01:25 PM #3 (permalink)  
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OK. Along similar lines. What about this one...
BB is asdpikas this time. 3 betting range will be wider this time

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7, 7
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls

Flop: (6.4 SB) 9, 10, K (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (4.2 BB) 5 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

River: (6.2 BB) 9 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Total pot: $4.10 (8.2 BB) | Rake: $0.15
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DrivingDog
Old 02-05-2009, 02:31 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinky
OK. Along similar lines. What about this one...
BB is asdpikas this time. 3 betting range will be wider this time

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7, 7
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls

Flop: (6.4 SB) 9, 10, K (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Turn: (4.2 BB) 5 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

River: (6.2 BB) 9 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Total pot: $4.10 (8.2 BB) | Rake: $0.15
I'd still probably just give up on the flop. The only things you are ahead of are AQ, AJ, and those each have 10 outs against you, so your equity is only 60%. If you're behind to anyting you have two outs at most and you're equity is about 10%. Given the latter is more likely than the former you are in a pretty shitty spot.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Fnord
Old 02-09-2009, 06:31 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: Raising the flop is really silly. If Chopp is going ape-shit-spew at you he isn't giving up that easy. I would flat and hope for a Jack. I might call his ass down, but probably give up on the turn.

Hand 2: Just fold the flop. You're so crushed there.
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DrivingDog
Old 02-10-2009, 01:09 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Hand 1) Can't say I'm a big fan of calling the flop c/r with 2 tainted J outs and a bd straight but the pot is big so it's close i guess.

Thinking about preflop though, I prefer just calling his 3bet because his range is about even money against us and JJ is hard to play against those hands. I don't see any point in bloating the pot because you aren't gaining value and you're pretty much never gaining fold equity against better hands. I mean he could fold QQ to you on an AKx flop, but that's about it.

In these situations, I prefer to let the villian have the lead. It's easier to control the size of the pot when you are both in position and out of the betting lead.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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