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sinky
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01-12-2009, 11:05 AM
Post subject: JJ with a horrible flop.
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SCOTLAND
Posts: 295
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Don't have hand history to hand but it was something like this.
Villain was typical tag 14/9 or close to that
Ipoker Limit Hold'em, $1/2 (10 handed)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , 
UTG raises, Hero 3 bets, lots of folds, UTG calls and we are HU to the flop.
Flop: (7.5 SB) , ,
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.
Turn: (4.25 BB) , , , :Th:
UTG checks, Hero checks.
River: (4.25 BB) , , , :Th:,
UTG bets, Hero folds.
My thoughts.... His range is crushing me. On the flop the only hands I can beat are possibly 88, 99, TT. However I feel obliged to C bet having 3 bet pre flop. When villain calls the flop I am done with this hand. He knows my 3 betting range is tight and he should be folding 88,99,TT. Too passive ? Having been on a downswing I might be giving opps too much respect.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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i think you played "ok," given your stats on villain. cbet is mandatory on the flop in a 3bet pot. you are getting 7.5:1 on your cbet. hard not to be profitable there.
what could his read on YOU be? does he think you are passive? weak/tight? have you been folding in spots like these where you gave up and he fires?
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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actually, lets play with this...
his range has you crushed on the flop (see below), and it gets a bit worse after the turn..
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 72.335% 71.24% 01.10% 10908 168.00 { 88+, ATs+, KTs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 27.665% 26.57% 01.10% 4068 168.00 { JJ }
but, can HE fold? what would he fold? what would he not raise on the flop, and check on the turn? 88-TT/QQ? AT? AK fires all the way on you. QQ caps pf, again. AJ/AQ?
of that (88-TT/AJ-AQ/KQ) what would he fold to a 2barrel? probably only the hands you want calling like 88-TT/KJ.
yeah, i think you fold here and chalk it up to being oop. sucks.
any disputes with the analysis?
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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sinky
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SCOTLAND
Posts: 295
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Pretty much what I cam up with. Interestingly the T on the turn gives us a gutshot but our equity actually decreases (assuming he hasn't already folded TT).
His range was probably even a little tighter. And if he was paying attention he would know that I am not 3 betting very often against a tight utg raise. I suspect he had AJ or AQ and feared I had at least AK. Of course he may have been waiting to check raise the turn with a badly played monster.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sinky
Pretty much what I cam up with. Interestingly the T on the turn gives us a gutshot but our equity actually decreases (assuming he hasn't already folded TT).
His range was probably even a little tighter. And if he was paying attention he would know that I am not 3 betting very often against a tight utg raise. I suspect he had AJ or AQ and feared I had at least AK. Of course he may have been waiting to check raise the turn with a badly played monster.
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two things...
1- the equity decreases, despite picking up the gutter, because we are already beat by the range and we only have ONE card coming now. we just didnt pick up enough outs.
2- JJ is a borderline 3bet against a 14/9 UTG raise, imo. that is, unless you have seen him balance with 89s, etc. i think i should have mentioned that in my first comment.
i know it shames players to have to fold JJ, but if you know he is likely only on JJ+/AQs+ (or tighter), then, its a fold.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Fold preflop. You're behind his UTG open-raising range and someone behind you could have an even better hand.
Once he calls the flop bet, the jig is up. I'm not putting any more money in this pot unless i improve.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Is it important to note here that this is on iPoker?
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toto0001
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3
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for me you make the correct move on rasing preflop and then of course the flop didnt help your hand... idk, maybe in this situation i would have fold but if you wanted to see the turn in order to hit a set, then its a good move anyways.....
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Knytestorme
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 562
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I like the rr pre, likely gets us heads up and gives us a better read either way. If someone caps behind us we know we're playing for set value while depending on if UTG caps or calls we now have info on their likely holdings.
Flop requires a c-bet when checked to, that's a no-brainer really. His call doesn't really tell us anything since he could be waiting for the turn to c/r us and get an extra bb from us rather than a sb or he could be as afraid of the A/K as we are.
Turn is where the mistake is made I think. I'd be betting this turn when checked to again as we can fold to a rr...the problem with the check behind when in position is that it turns our hand face up essentially and shwo's we're afraid of the A/K out there and are trying to get to a cheap showdown. This leads to...
The river, villain is now aware we're scared of the board and since the river is essentially a brick they can now lead out knowing that if you were scared of getting played back on the turn then you likely can't call here.
Some boards just have to be mutli-barreled since so many people will now float an A-high flop in a rr pot just to see what happens on the turn and they are hoping to see a line like yours in this hand.
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Trons
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 86
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Knytestorme
I like the rr pre, likely gets us heads up and gives us a better read either way. If someone caps behind us we know we're playing for set value while depending on if UTG caps or calls we now have info on their likely holdings.
Flop requires a c-bet when checked to, that's a no-brainer really. His call doesn't really tell us anything since he could be waiting for the turn to c/r us and get an extra bb from us rather than a sb or he could be as afraid of the A/K as we are.
Turn is where the mistake is made I think. I'd be betting this turn when checked to again as we can fold to a rr...the problem with the check behind when in position is that it turns our hand face up essentially and shwo's we're afraid of the A/K out there and are trying to get to a cheap showdown. This leads to...
The river, villain is now aware we're scared of the board and since the river is essentially a brick they can now lead out knowing that if you were scared of getting played back on the turn then you likely can't call here.
Some boards just have to be mutli-barreled since so many people will now float an A-high flop in a rr pot just to see what happens on the turn and they are hoping to see a line like yours in this hand.
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I'll be honest, JJ is one of those hands I hate playing to an open raise. With as tight as this UTG is, I'd be tempted to fold it now, or just c/f it down
I like the raise PF as an isolation play, not as a value bet. Keep in mind that most of your opponents won't know what an isolation play is so they'll almost always put you on a hand that they themselves would 3bet. This can be valuable and it can work against us.
One thing to keep in mind is that there is never a reason to make a CB unless you think it'll get somebody to fold. The way I do it is, I take a read on the guy, take what I know about him and say "He'll fold to a cb x% of the time...am i getting the odds to try this?" While not exactly a precise method, I haven't found a better one.
The more I look at the hand, the more I like your play on the turn and river. When villian flat calls your bet on the flop I think that is his way of saying "You repped a really nice starting hand PF and I just don't care, I'll let you bet into me and I'll take your money."
It would probably be different if we knew that villian knows what an isolation play is and that way he can put you on a cb on the flop, but unless he's reading you like an open book there is no way he can do that with this flop...
If you've shown the ability to be able to 3bet weaker hands, then that may have been where he got his read on you and you just folded JJ to 99...but I don't see it that way...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Trons is right!
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Jsttrons
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Played fine IMO. Villain very rarely shows up with a worse pp than ours or a ten when he bets the river.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Some boards just have to be mutli-barreled since so many people will now float an A-high flop in a rr pot just to see what happens on the turn and they are hoping to see a line like yours in this hand.
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2barreling is the LHE form of a NL cbet. flop bets mean shit in LHE. but, turn bets close the sale.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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socal1111
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 191
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Fold preflop. You're behind his UTG open-raising range and someone behind you could have an even better hand.
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That's just RIDICULOUS!!! AKs, AK, AQ, AQs, TT, is in his range, and "worrying" that you're beat behind when you're holding JJ is plain scared poker.
NEVER FOLDING JJ PREFLOP!!!!!!
On the flop... totally different story.
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"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by socal1111
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Fold preflop. You're behind his UTG open-raising range and someone behind you could have an even better hand.
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That's just RIDICULOUS!!! AKs, AK, AQ, AQs, TT, is in his range, and "worrying" that you're beat behind when you're holding JJ is plain scared poker.
NEVER FOLDING JJ PREFLOP!!!!!!
On the flop... totally different story.
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Even if you think a guy with a pfr of 9 opens that wide a range from UTG 10-handed, then you are behind with JJ...
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
97,601,328 games 0.011 secs 8,872,848,000 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.124% 52.08% 01.04% 50831296 1018733.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 46.876% 45.83% 01.04% 44732566 1018733.00 { JcJd }
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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sinky
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SCOTLAND
Posts: 295
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Even if you think a guy with a pfr of 9 opens that wide a range from UTG 10-handed, then you are behind with JJ...
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
97,601,328 games 0.011 secs 8,872,848,000 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.124% 52.08% 01.04% 50831296 1018733.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 46.876% 45.83% 01.04% 44732566 1018733.00 { JcJd }
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If you add 99 it is 50/50
If you add 99, AJs, KQs then JJ has 51% equity.
If you add 99, ATs+, KQs, AJ then JJ has 53.5%
Your point about getting capped from someone yet to act is a good one, especially when you would most likely be trapped between them. But does that happen often enough to take away the slight edge I currently have ? Must admit the 3 bet was automatic for me at the time.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.124% 52.08% 01.04% 50831296 1018733.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 46.876% 45.83% 01.04% 44732566 1018733.00 { JcJd }
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I'll take that considering I'll likely be in position and can ditch on the flop if things go awry. I have my eye toward a flop full of bricks, and if given that, my equity looks good and I proceed aggro.
Of course, that's not what we have in this particular hand but as this flop has come down, cbet is probably standard and the rest is probably how I'd play it as well.
DD, your point about a playing in later position capping is a good one, but you don't mind set mining at that point, do you? If you knew you were going to get capped, of course you wouldn't aim to set mine here with only two opps, but as a back up plan to the original it has merit.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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I think it's close, and against some opponents you should 3 bet with < 50% equity. The problem here is that if he's a decent player (as his stats suggest) the only hands that give us action after the flop will be ones that have us beat, which will a lot of them. Hitting a set isn't going to make up for that.
e.g., flop comes T73 rainbow. You c-bet and he c/rs. You can't be happy about your chances here, but now the pot is big and you may feel compelled to call down.
Any A or K on the flop puts us in a tough spot, and a Q isn't pretty either.
Also getting capped from someone behind means you pretty much have to set mine, but now you've put in 4 SB preflop, so to get a proper return you need a final pot that's 16 BB or more, which won't happen that often.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
e.g., flop comes T73 rainbow. You c-bet and he c/rs. You can't be happy about your chances here, but now the pot is big and you may feel compelled to call down.
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Yep, I follow your thinking but this is one of the reasons I like the 3-bet pre, to help determine his range. Anything he'd c/r that bricked flop with, he'd likely have capped pre with.
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socal1111
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Straight
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 191
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If (anyone) folds JJ preflop utg+1 to utg raise.... stop playing limit!
If (anyone) adds the fear of "better hand behind" is a reason not 3bet... stop playing limit!
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"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Just saying 'it's wrong to fold here and you shouldn't play the game if you do' isn't really an argument - being condescending is not the same as being correct.
Please give me an actual reason why it's good poker to play a hand that is <50% against the opener's range with 8 players left to act behind you and that has negative implied odds.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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