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JJ all the way

  
 
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Fnord
Old 05-11-2005, 06:56 AM     Post subject: JJ all the way #1 (permalink)  
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Not much info on CO, seems kinda tight
SB is loose, but hasn't been very aggro pre-flop and is passive post-flop

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with J, J. MP posts a blind of $3.
Fnord raises, MP (poster) calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Fnord calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 3, 5, 8 (5 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, MP folds, CO 3-bets, Button folds, SB caps, Fnord calls, CO calls.

Turn: (14 BB) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, CO raises, SB calls, Fnord calls.

River: (20 BB) 4 (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks, CO bets, SB calls, Fnord calls.


UTG looks pretty solid (20/9 split)
MP2 is an idiot calling station
MP3 looks kinda loose and pre-flop aggro, but I don't have much to work with

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with J, J.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Fnord 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Fnord calls.

Flop: (25 SB) 3, 8, 8 (6 players)
Fnord bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 3-bets, Fnord caps, UTG calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (19.50 BB) 5 (3 players)
Fnord bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

River: (22.50 BB) T (3 players)
Fnord bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 25.50 BB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 05-11-2005, 07:17 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Similar hand, but the river makes it less interesting...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with T, T.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Fnord 3-bets, 1 fold, BB caps, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Fnord calls.

Flop: (20.33 SB) 4, 7, 9 (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Fnord raises, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 3-bets, Fnord calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (16.16 BB) 2 (4 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, Fnord raises, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP3 3-bets, Fnord calls, UTG calls.

River: (25.16 BB) T (3 players)
UTG checks, MP3 bets, Fnord raises, UTG calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 31.16 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Kd 7d (one pair, sevens).
MP3 has 9h 4h (two pair, nines and fours).
Fnord has Ts Th (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Fnord wins 31.16 BB.

Up until then MP3 had been quiet and I was seriously considering a laydown or cold-call pre-flop...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Strung
Old 05-11-2005, 01:50 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I'm curious about the second JJ hand. Why the cap on the flop? The board is paired and a flush draw. It has been 3-bet to you. I guess at worst I would call but do you ever consider a laydown here at all? Maybe I'm just used to the idiots at .5/1 where a 3-bet on a flop like this usually means an 8.
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I_got_the_nuts
Old 05-11-2005, 02:58 PM #4 (permalink)  

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Shorthand is definately not my forte, but I suspect you might be up against a set on that first hand, especially since CO cold called (possibly with 88?) then went crazy post flop. A8 is an outside possiblity as well, especially if he suspects you and the SB to have hands like AK-AT, but that would be pretty agressive considering SB capped the flop, and still the CO raised the turn with the SB still to act. For all I know, dude has a 75o, but I like him for the set here, if he has anything other, he might want to think about toning the aggressive level down a bit, or taking a second out on his house.

The 2nd hand of the first post is a real tough read just by looking at it. Not sure what UTG might have limped with here that would make him raise the this flop. Flush Draw with 2 overs that is not the nut flush (KJs) maybe? Ax suited clubs (possible, but stupid if he limped with that from his position)? MP3 screams 8 on the flop, but when when he just calls the turn, its obvious he doesn't have it. Maybe he has a trey and he puts you on two big overcards? The action is kinda conflicting, I'd love to know what these two had at showdown.

LMFAO. Where do you find these people that raise with 94s at 3/6 games? And I was actually starting to think that the fish were getting somewhat better lately!!
The possibility of physical and mental breakdown is now very real. No sympathy for the Devil, keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride.
 
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Old 05-11-2005, 05:02 PM #5 (permalink)  
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hand 1: either chuck it on the flop when it comes back 2 to you, or go into call down mode. SB looks like pumping a flush, and CO looks like they hit the set. either way, you have a passive player aggressive, and a tight player aggressive...not good for you on the flop.

hand 2: perfect...although i think you lost to QQ here.

hand 3: lol, i guess TT is not a flop capping hand for you.
 
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I_got_the_nuts
Old 05-11-2005, 05:57 PM #6 (permalink)  

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I_got_the_nuts
hand 2: perfect...although i think you lost to QQ here.


Unless he was trying to be cute with his girls here, I would think he would probably raise this preflop
The possibility of physical and mental breakdown is now very real. No sympathy for the Devil, keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride.
 
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:57 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_got_the_nuts
hand 2: perfect...although i think you lost to QQ here.


Unless he was trying to be cute with his girls here, I would think he would probably raise this preflop
UTG's limp-cap preflop easily means QQ+
MP3 is probably a lower pocket pair. if they flopped a boat/trips they would definitely raise the turn.
 
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Fnord
Old 05-11-2005, 09:04 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
if they flopped a boat/trips they would definitely raise the turn.
*chuckle*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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I_got_the_nuts
Old 05-11-2005, 10:07 PM #9 (permalink)  

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I_got_the_nuts
I thought about UTG trying to be tricky with a big pair, but really, whats the point of being tricky with QQ? I'm not saying he didn't have that, but thats taking a stupid risk on his part if he did. Possibly letting in a whole full table for 1 bet then leaving himself drawing dead basically if an Ace or King falls? I don't think a decent player would risk that. I could be wrong, I just don't see him with QQ here unless this table was real aggressive and he knew it would be raised regardless. If he had AA or KK why didn't he raise the river? It was obvious MP MAYBE had a trey and definately not an 8, and he's gotta know Fnord doesn't have an 8. I'm still new to this board, and I realize you probably have more posts here in a day than I have total, but I gotta go against you on this one, I still like this guy for two live overs here (in clubs) or the slight outside possibility of a medium pair.


Fnord, you're killing me man, how bout them results?
The possibility of physical and mental breakdown is now very real. No sympathy for the Devil, keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride.
 
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Old 05-11-2005, 10:41 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
*chuckle*
well, if they don't raise, then i'm glad to have them at my table because they are saving me money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_got_the_nuts
...
fine, maybe my initial assessment with QQ was wrong. but that doesn't mean that KK or AA isn't likely.

given that Fnord capped the flop, and bet into them on the turn, even if they did have KK/AA it would be hard for them to raise again.
 
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Fnord
Old 05-11-2005, 10:50 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
given that Fnord capped the flop, and bet into them on the turn, even if they did have KK/AA it would be hard for them to raise again.
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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I_got_the_nuts
Old 05-11-2005, 11:06 PM #12 (permalink)  

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Wow. I stand corrected, and a little shocked to be quite honest. There is no way in any world he could have put you on an 8 there. What the hell did he think you had? If he had KK and was that worried about AA, then all I can say is he must have taken one too many bad beats in his life. AA vs. KK is pretty rare occurance, obviously I'm not him and he's not me, but the risk is definately worth the reward to raise the river there in my opinion.


This just made me think about had he raised the river here, would your game tell you to reraised here?
The possibility of physical and mental breakdown is now very real. No sympathy for the Devil, keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride.
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-12-2005, 05:05 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_got_the_nuts
Wow. I stand corrected, and a little shocked to be quite honest. There is no way in any world he could have put you on an 8 there. What the hell did he think you had? If he had KK and was that worried about AA, then all I can say is he must have taken one too many bad beats in his life. AA vs. KK is pretty rare occurance, obviously I'm not him and he's not me, but the risk is definately worth the reward to raise the river there in my opinion.


This just made me think about had he raised the river here, would your game tell you to reraised here?
No, a significance of a raise on the river almost always means the nuts or near nuts. Only reraise when you yourself have those kind of hands.

And, AA vs KK isnt as uncommon as you think . . .


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rmariani
Old 05-12-2005, 09:24 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
And, AA vs KK isnt as uncommon as you think . . .
lolol
My last week can vouch for that
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kizzik
Old 05-13-2005, 01:19 AM #15 (permalink)  

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kizzik
Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
And, AA vs KK isnt as uncommon as you think . . .
Exactly.

Last night I got KK four times in a session on one table. Three times I was up against AA. The fourth time everyone just folded when I raised pre-flop.
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Room
Old 05-13-2005, 02:54 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Hand 2: I think KK or AA raises this turn. Assuming your opponents are thinking, the only hands that beat them are 88,55,33. I don't frequently see a preflop 3 bet with 55,33 and the obvious likelyhood of 88 makes this an easy turn raise for AA or KK.
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:37 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Room
Hand 2: I think KK or AA raises this turn. Assuming your opponents are thinking, the only hands that beat them are 88,55,33. I don't frequently see a preflop 3 bet with 55,33 and the obvious likelyhood of 88 makes this an easy turn raise for AA or KK.
after UTG+1 raised, you have THREE cold callers. you can't rule out any pocket pair, any suited ace, any suited connector once something like that happens.
 
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Room
Old 05-13-2005, 10:26 PM #18 (permalink)  
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With AA, KK, Im raising this turn and doing some thinking about folding to a 3bet. I doing think you can play those hands that timidly on this board. Regardless, I don't think you can get AA, KK to laydown, plus you might get raised on the turn. I think JJ only beats AcKc from UTG, and another flush draw or smaller PP from MP3.
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:01 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Room
With AA, KK, Im raising this turn and doing some thinking about folding to a 3bet.
food for thought...
raising and folding costs 2 bets.
calling down costs 2 bets and you get a showdown.
 
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Room
Old 05-13-2005, 11:29 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Room
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Room
With AA, KK, Im raising this turn and doing some thinking about folding to a 3bet.
food for thought...
raising and folding costs 2 bets.
calling down costs 2 bets and you get a showdown.
I agree, but I think you have the best hand here often enough to raise this turn and extract 1 more BB.

I'm giving this a shot here - correct me if I'm out of line...

Board: 3c 8c 8h 5d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 87.6491 % [ 00.88 00.00 ] { AA }
Hand 2: 04.5845 % [ 00.05 00.00 ] { KK }
Hand 3: 07.7663 % [ 00.08 00.00 ] { QQ-99, 77-66, 44, 22, AJs-A2s, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, 76o }
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Old 05-14-2005, 01:24 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Room
Hand 1: 87.6491 % [ 00.88 00.00 ] { AA }
Hand 2: 04.5845 % [ 00.05 00.00 ] { KK }
Hand 3: 07.7663 % [ 00.08 00.00 ] { QQ-99, 77-66, 44, 22, AJs-A2s, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, 76o }
why are you completely disregarding the possibility of someone flopping a set or having an 8?
 
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Room
Old 05-14-2005, 03:00 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Room
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Room
Hand 1: 87.6491 % [ 00.88 00.00 ] { AA }
Hand 2: 04.5845 % [ 00.05 00.00 ] { KK }
Hand 3: 07.7663 % [ 00.08 00.00 ] { QQ-99, 77-66, 44, 22, AJs-A2s, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s, JTs-J9s, 76o }
why are you completely disregarding the possibility of someone flopping a set or having an 8?
I disregarded them because I think if your opponent has one of those hands; A) you will get reraised unless against an extremely tricky opponent and B) if they are included, I think your equity would be pretty low as you are only drawing to 2 A's remaining. Can we assume this when running hand equity?
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Old 05-14-2005, 03:23 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Room
...
A) Fnord did bet and cap the flop, and bet into them on the turn. Fnord is the villain here who might have an 8. they are the heros.
B) completely disregarding the possibility of an 8 just brings on a biased assessment
 
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Fnord
Old 05-15-2005, 01:11 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Room
With AA, KK, Im raising this turn and doing some thinking about folding to a 3bet.
food for thought...
raising and folding costs 2 bets.
calling down costs 2 bets and you get a showdown.
Also calling down gives you a chance to spike your set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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