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Hate
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09-06-2005, 11:44 AM
Post subject: I've lost a lot of money with this type of hand recently.
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 322
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Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with 3 , A.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.
Flop: (10 SB) 5 , 4, 9 (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.
Turn: (6.50 BB) Q (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.
River: (9.50 BB) 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero folds.
Final Pot: 11.50 BB
Usually, i'm just limping in from LP with AXs, KXs or suited conns, get the flush draw + gutshot, call it to river and muck it UI. It's been losing me a lot of money these last few days
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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This is so very standard. You could make an argument for raising the flop which is very slightly +EV if both of them call and nobody has a set. But the times UTG 3-bets and knocks out UTG+1 bring the value of a raise closer to 0.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hate
Usually, i'm just limping in from LP with AXs, KXs or suited conns, get the flush draw + gutshot, call it to river and muck it UI. It's been losing me a lot of money these last few days
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Just keep doing it, trust me.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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This didn't lose you money.
...do you see why?
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Hate
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 322
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Actually, I do 
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
This is so very standard. You could make an argument for raising the flop which is very slightly +EV if both of them call and nobody has a set. But the times UTG 3-bets and knocks out UTG+1 bring the value of a raise closer to 0.
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Raising the flop is more than marginally +EV in this case, whether UTG 3-bets or not.
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Poker is freedom
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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eh, just check/call, a raise would surely drive out 2 people, and even possibly get 3-bet by a good pair (which I know I would do)
and yes, unless a game is crazy loose, only play these in LP/in the blinds
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take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
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StinkyBeaver
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 275
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I'm betting out on this flop... wrong..?
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by koolmoe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
This is so very standard. You could make an argument for raising the flop which is very slightly +EV if both of them call and nobody has a set. But the times UTG 3-bets and knocks out UTG+1 bring the value of a raise closer to 0.
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Raising the flop is more than marginally +EV in this case, whether UTG 3-bets or not. |
I think Phyl probably didn't see the gutshot wheel draw, I missed it at first as well.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by StinkyBeaver
I'm betting out on this flop... wrong..?
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Depends on UTG. If he's aggressive, I would prefer to check so that he can drive the betting. If most everyone is passive and often go to the river, I would prefer to lead the flop.
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Poker is freedom
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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I've played for over 20 hours before without making a single flush. I've also had nights where almost every one comes in. Don't worry about losing a lot of money on hands like that. If you are losing most of your money on hands like that, it's going to change ... overall hands like that make you a lot of money.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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You played it fine. You can't bet or reraise here for a free card, so you may as well play it passive and hope to hit cheaply with lots of people in the pot.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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Hate
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 322
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Yeah, i know in the long run it's these hands that make me a ton, but i've just had a 700 hand downswing, my first such LHE downswing and i was getting a bit angry that everytime i hit a pair or 2, someone would hit their gutshot or get a 4-flush/4-straight board and i can't manage bloody flush + gutshot draws
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
Quote:
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Originally Posted by koolmoe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
This is so very standard. You could make an argument for raising the flop which is very slightly +EV if both of them call and nobody has a set. But the times UTG 3-bets and knocks out UTG+1 bring the value of a raise closer to 0.
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Raising the flop is more than marginally +EV in this case, whether UTG 3-bets or not. |
I think Phyl probably didn't see the gutshot wheel draw, I missed it at first as well. |
Yeah sorry thought it was just a flush draw. I prefer a check/raise to betting out.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
Quote:
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Originally Posted by koolmoe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
This is so very standard. You could make an argument for raising the flop which is very slightly +EV if both of them call and nobody has a set. But the times UTG 3-bets and knocks out UTG+1 bring the value of a raise closer to 0.
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Raising the flop is more than marginally +EV in this case, whether UTG 3-bets or not. |
I think Phyl probably didn't see the gutshot wheel draw, I missed it at first as well. |
Yeah sorry thought it was just a flush draw. I prefer a check/raise to betting out. |
In the sense that a checkraise would be "good" and betting out would be "godawful"?
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
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Originally Posted by TylerK
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Originally Posted by koolmoe
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Originally Posted by Phyl
This is so very standard. You could make an argument for raising the flop which is very slightly +EV if both of them call and nobody has a set. But the times UTG 3-bets and knocks out UTG+1 bring the value of a raise closer to 0.
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Raising the flop is more than marginally +EV in this case, whether UTG 3-bets or not. |
I think Phyl probably didn't see the gutshot wheel draw, I missed it at first as well. |
Yeah sorry thought it was just a flush draw. I prefer a check/raise to betting out. |
In the sense that a checkraise would be "good" and betting out would be "godawful"? |
This guy gets it.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
In the sense that a checkraise would be "good" and betting out would be "godawful"?
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I disagree, I'm not playing around here. I lead the flop and try to get as many callers as possible. If I get raised behind then I slow down unless 3 people are a guaranteed lock in this pot. IF thats the case then I'm capping it, I'm getting as much value out of this hand as possible, and you want as much money in that pot as humanly possible with 2 other callers, if more than 2 then its even more money in your pocket. The nut flush draw with any other kind of draw is a hand I like to increase the money I get from the edge as much as I can.
Secondly, I like to play AXs from EP, although in this case it doesnt matter because you are the BB. If 5 players are going to be in the pot pretty much all the time K8s and A6s become profitable from any position. Axs becomes a raise in LP facing a field of limpers and the possibility of buying the button, notice: I didn't say cold call it though (*cough* tyler *cough*)
A check/raise here is more likely to decrease the number of people in the pot rather than increase your pot. I lead the flop, turn, then check/fold the river unless he'll fold for one bet.
And finally, so what you are on a 700 hand downswing. I hope you realize that the 8 tabler pro does that in a mere 1.5 hour sitting. Stop drinking cheese flavored whine.
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I'm five betting the flop. That's right, five betting.
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TylerK
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
In the sense that a checkraise would be "good" and betting out would be "godawful"?
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I disagree, I'm not playing around here. I lead the flop and try to get as many callers as possible. If I get raised behind then I slow down unless 3 people are a guaranteed lock in this pot. IF thats the case then I'm capping it, I'm getting as much value out of this hand as possible, and you want as much money in that pot as humanly possible with 2 other callers, if more than 2 then its even more money in your pocket. The nut flush draw with any other kind of draw is a hand I like to increase the money I get from the edge as much as I can. |
Before I argue, did you see that UTG raised preflop? If you missed it that might change your answer.
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Axs becomes a raise in LP facing a field of limpers and the possibility of buying the button, notice: I didn't say cold call it though (*cough* tyler *cough*)
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Man. You recommend ONE cold call with a suited ace and you're branded for life.
(BTW if in this particular hand I'm the button instead of BB and it's raised UTG but still 4 callers before I act, I am most likely cold calling here.)
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Phyl
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 396
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
A check/raise here is more likely to decrease the number of people in the pot rather than increase your pot.
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I don't understand why and I don't see how leading out is better.
Could you explain?
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sinky
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SCOTLAND
Posts: 295
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Phyl
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
A check/raise here is more likely to decrease the number of people in the pot rather than increase your pot.
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I don't understand why and I don't see how leading out is better.
Could you explain? |
I don't understand either.
The PF raiser is immediately to your left. You check, he bets, everyone who calls is then trapped for 2 bets by your check raise. If you lead out he will raise and everyone else will fold.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sinky
The PF raiser is immediately to your left. You check, he bets, everyone who calls is then trapped for 2 bets by your check raise. If you lead out he will raise and everyone else will fold.
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Depends on how aggressive UTG plays. His most likely holding is overcards. Will he bet into four players even when he misses? Will he raise you when he holds overs or just call? Seeing this flop checked through is a nightmare.
Another consideration is how often he raises preflop. A tight raiser is more likely to have an overpair, and I would check to him on that flop.
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Poker is freedom
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Possibly, I really dont want this flop to get checked through though and on this board they may fold anyway as they did. With two overcards, UTG will probably not auto-raise in this situation, with an overpair he would. Even if he does raise those opponents weren't opposed to calling two bets preflop and you'll get probably one caller.
Looking at it again, either play on this board would be good, but not raising this board is criminal.
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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I don't see this getting checked through. UTG is 85% likely to bet the flop no matter what he actually holds, so I think the check-raise is optimal. Even if UTG checks, there are two players behind him that could have a nine, a pocket pair, a straight draw, or a worse flush draw; someone is going to bet this flop nine times out of ten. Usually it will be the pre-flop raiser. With a bet out you are somewhat likely to get raised immediately by UTG, which is a clear action-killer (only uber-fish or someone slowplaying a monster would call two bets cold) and puts you in the unprofitable situation of likely playing the rest of the hand heads up against UTG, who definitely sees that heart draw and isn't going to pay it off handsomely if you hit. If you check-raise, you get more bets in the pot and you keep the action multi-way, because almost no players will call one bet and then fold to a raise; and UTG is only three-betting you with an overpair, and depending on how passive he is, maybe not even then. This is the low limit, let's not forget.
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