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Shark Bait
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08-14-2006, 11:16 PM
Post subject: Isolating
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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I'm sure this is covered in some more advanced books I haven't gotten to yet, but do I want to be isolating everyone that open limps or just the loose players?
Let me be a little more clear. I have a hand that I would normally just call the BB with, but some player with a 30% VP$IP or higher has limped before me. I will often raise here, but I find myself just calling if someone with a 20% or lower VP$IP limps. Is this how I want to be playing, or should I exploit my position on the limper even more, even though he is a solid player?
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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Isolate people you either have an edge preflop or postflop with
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by midas06
Isolate people you either have an edge preflop or postflop with
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I"ll extend that to only preflop hands, if your range beats his range then raise away. You might want to do some pokerstove calculations on whether you win more money by raising or limping though.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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I've found isolating thin and outplaying postflop to be quite profitable in full ring, given the correct table "structure" (tighties on your left who aren't just going to coldcall your isolation raise). When a 20% vpip limps, you can really narrow down his range quite well. It's almost always either pocket pairs he doesn't feel comfortable opening for a raise with (say, 22-55ish), or big suited connectors like JTs.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I really think iso raising is a postflop concept
I think the best time to iso raise is when you put the lead bettor on a draw. I know I hate donking out my flush draw and then the player to my left iso raises, I lose all equity, no one cold calls, and now I have to check the turn if I miss and lead again if I hit.
Just to get it straight tho, in these low limit games, how many ppl at the table are aware of an iso raise, or what the raisor is actually trying to accomplish. The iso raise does work better in 6max b/c its a stronger play. It really kills pot odds for hands such as overcards or gutshots. Even if you are raising with what you feel may not be the best hand, I'd still iso raise to give yourself the best chance to have the best hand in the end.
The iso raise is all about forcing your opponents to call two bets cold, which in most cases, is a mistake.
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midas06
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 2,196
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it's definitely a preflop concept also. 3 betting with position if you think your range beats his = $$
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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"your range beats his range"
I think it is more precise to say that your hand is either ahead of or plays favorably against most of his range.
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Poker is freedom
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Just having a hand worth a raise against the limper's range is not necessarily good enough to raise at FR. It is too costly to try an iso-raise in EP just because a limper is too loose.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
Just having a hand worth a raise against the limper's range is not necessarily good enough to raise at FR. It is too costly to try an iso-raise in EP just because a limper is too loose.
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Not necessarily. It all depends on the players behind you. I made a lot of money doing this at 15/30 year ago, basiclaly playing a 6 max style in FR, isolating and whatnot.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Good comments all. One thing, though, seems not to have gotten the attention it deserves, and that is the quality of the opponent we're trying to isolate.
There are a number of players who are loose preflop but who play the flop well. It's these characters (is that what you meant by "solid", Shark?) I don't necessarily want to try to isolate thin. In fact the more I play, the more I aim at isolating weak players rather than try to establish a specific range for a given player.
I did have an hilarious session a month ago where I was able to isolate the woman sitting behind me. She bluffed me off a pot in the first round of hands after I sat down and showed me her hand, which I found irritating--after that I paid particular attention to her play. She was fairly loose preflop, and for whatever reason any time I raised she automaticallly coldcalled. (When I limped there was no pattern to her play.) The rest of the table was fairly tight so I quickly started raising with hands like A9o and QTs in early position. Much of the time I'd get her heads up, and even though out of position, playing JTs against the likes of T3o or whatever random hand she'd call with wasn't difficult. This lasted a couple of hours--I think I would up taking about 40 BB off her. Wish I could remember her name...
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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What does "isolate thin" mean?
At stars 3/6 I encountered a lot of players like you first described arkitekton. They are loose, 30+ VP$IP, but know when to fold and when to stay in. I will win a lot of small pots off them by isolating, but then often lose some big ones. Just a little too difficult for me so I went back to 2/4 where the loose players are actually really bad. 
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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'isolating thin" means you're cutting your edge pretty close, by not waiting for a huge hand before you isolate-raise an opponent. As a very rough example, if you think his limping range in early position would be 88-66, suited connectors down to 54, any two offsuit cards 9 and above, you might raise with something as weak as KTs, figuring that if you're ahead of half his limping hands, having position on him combined with your superior play will give you a nice overall profit
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