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I win a big pot --> chat explosion

  
 
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A'aag
Old 07-18-2005, 10:35 PM     Post subject: I win a big pot --> chat explosion #1 (permalink)  
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Sorry about the PokerRoom hh.
mr.stirfry went nuts after this- he thought I should have folded on the flop or turn. Obviously he's wrong, but does anyone try to clean up their outs at some point? How?

Texas Hold'em $3-$6 (real money), hand #1,083,697,596
Table Schwerin, 18 Jul 2005 3:30 PM ET

Seat 1: shikadee
Seat 2: gordon73
Seat 3: mr.stirfry
Seat 4: grafitti1
Seat 5: DIWIRA
Seat 6: River Axe
Seat 7: snowjogs
Seat 8: thefishryan
Seat 9: Hero [ 10H,AH ]
Seat 10: eademup
ANTES/BLINDS
gordon73 posts blind ($1.50), mr.stirfry posts blind ($3), thefishryan posts blind ($3), eademup posts blind ($3).

PRE-FLOP
grafitti1 bets $6, DIWIRA folds, River Axe folds, snowjogs calls $6, thefishryan folds, Hero calls $6, eademup calls $3, shikadee calls $6, gordon73 folds, mr.stirfry calls $3.

FLOP [board cards 7C,8C,3D ]
mr.stirfry checks, grafitti1 checks, snowjogs checks, Hero checks, eademup checks, shikadee bets $3, mr.stirfry calls $3, grafitti1 folds, snowjogs calls $3, Hero calls $3, eademup calls $3.

TURN [board cards 7C,8C,3D,4S ]
mr.stirfry checks, snowjogs checks, Hero checks, eademup checks, shikadee bets $6, mr.stirfry calls $6, snowjogs calls $6, Hero calls $6, eademup folds.

RIVER [board cards 7C,8C,3D,4S,AS ]
mr.stirfry checks, snowjogs checks, Hero bets $6, shikadee folds, mr.stirfry folds, snowjogs calls $6.

SHOWDOWN
Hero shows [ 10H,AH ]
snowjogs shows [ 6H,7H ]
Hero wins $88.50.

SUMMARY
Dealer: shikadee
Pot: $91.50 | Rake: $3
shikadee loses $15
gordon73 loses $1.50
mr.stirfry loses $15
grafitti1 loses $6
DIWIRA loses $0
River Axe loses $0
snowjogs loses $21
thefishryan loses $3
Hero bets $21, collects $88.50, net $67.50
eademup loses $9
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moiraine57
Old 07-18-2005, 10:57 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I don't play $3/6.....But if you did this at my limits, I would make a note:

"Player will call dangerous flop and turn with as little as two overcards in a multiway pot..."

And then I would follow you around from room to room.

Are you sure that nobody here has A-J? A-Q? I would not put anyone on A-K because they probably would have raised preflop...

Are you sure that nobody who posted those antes has suited connectors? A Str8? Garbage cards that they decided to play that hit 2 pair?

If, for some reason that this hand history has not successfully articulated to me, you were 90% that both the 10 and the Ace would have won you this pot, then you would have been correct for all your calls.

I dunno, again, you play at higher limits than I do, so perhaps you have some mad skillz I don't have....please let me in on your reasoning here, because I do not see it.
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A'aag
Old 07-18-2005, 11:08 PM #3 (permalink)  
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From SSH:
"In large pots you should often continue even if your winning chances appear grim. Poker folklore holds that drawing dead is a terrible mistake...While this advice is generally incorrect in most situations, it is truly dreadful when the pot is large."

Yes I know I could be dominated and I don't like calling those bets, but I'm getting proper odds even discounting club outs. I'm hoping AJ, AQ etc. either aren't there or don't realize they should call, and I'm asking if anyone sees an opportunity to push them out.
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A'aag
Old 07-18-2005, 11:27 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Perhaps I should explain a little more of my reasoning because the flop is weird and I'm certainly open to the idea that I misplayed the whole thing. I called preflop mostly looking for a flush draw because the pot was going to be big. When the flop comes, I'm expecting the preflop raiser to bet out, and I will probably fold. When he checks, I suspect he's trying to protect an everpair by check/raising, but I don't like my hand anyway so I don't care. Now someone behind me bets and nearly everyone (except the preflop raiser) calls back to me and I realize I'm getting over 10:1 so I peel. On the turn I'm starting to think I should clean up my outs, but I can only make it 2 bets to one player so I decide to just call getting over 10:1 again. The river hits me and I value bet wondering if I can/should fold to a raise. I probably would have called one more fully expecting to lose.

I'm not totally comfortable with all this, which is why I posted the hh.
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-18-2005, 11:34 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Fold preflop.

Fold the Flop.

Fold the Turn.

Call the River.


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A'aag
Old 07-18-2005, 11:36 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Fold preflop.

Fold the Flop.

Fold the Turn.

Call the River.
ok,ok
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JJDylan
Old 07-19-2005, 02:20 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I see no reason to stay in the hand after that flop gets bet
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A'aag
Old 07-19-2005, 02:37 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJDylan
I see no reason to stay in the hand after that flop gets bet
I'm getting 16.5:1 minus the rake. I only need 3 outs to make this call. I can see why you want to fold- I wanted to fold. But the pot was so big I could not justify giving up on it.
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pokerfanatic
Old 07-19-2005, 02:59 AM #9 (permalink)  
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i see no reasion to be in the hand PF...
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
 
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A'aag
Old 07-19-2005, 03:32 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic01
i see no reasion to be in the hand PF...
This is a better point, IMO. I'm getting 3.75:1 immediately, and I wind up getting 5.75:1, which I probably should not have counted on (although I was counting on it).
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TylerK
Old 07-19-2005, 12:58 PM #11 (permalink)  
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I don't know, is this number of cold-callers common for this table? Is the UTG a loose preflop raiser? If these are both somewhat true, then you'd probably be mental to fold preflop.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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Les_Worm
Old 07-19-2005, 02:27 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Not only did you cold call preflop, you called both the flop bet and turn bet with no pair and no draw.
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TylerK
Old 07-19-2005, 02:45 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Worm
Not only did you cold call preflop, you called both the flop bet and turn bet with no pair and no draw.
I think he knows what he did. That doesn't really answer anything. I don't think this is as clear-cut as some of you guys are making it out to be.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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koolmoe
Old 07-19-2005, 02:49 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Given the following:

- An UTG raiser who check/folds in a huge pot for only one bet on the flop
- A poster behind you
- A MP player cold-calling UTG raises with 76s

and assuming you were aware of your opponents' styles, I think you played the hand reasonably well. If anything, you might have considered folding the turn because some of your outs are tainted or in the muck (Ac, Tc, perhaps reverse domination, maybe UTG had an A). Then again, you only need about 4 outs to call the turn (fewer if you consider implied odds), so it would be a close fold. When in doubt, call in a big pot.
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Les_Worm
Old 07-19-2005, 04:35 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Worm
Not only did you cold call preflop, you called both the flop bet and turn bet with no pair and no draw.
I think he knows what he did. That doesn't really answer anything. I don't think this is as clear-cut as some of you guys are making it out to be.
Why is this not clear cut? How often do you want to be drawing to an ace which could quite possibly be dominated? Cold calling w/ ATs, calling down (unimproved) in a multiway pot is just bleeding chips. He got lucky, I bet if he misses his Ace on the river and posted the hand everyone is calling him an idiot.
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A'aag
Old 07-19-2005, 04:45 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
is this number of cold-callers common for this table? Is the UTG a loose preflop raiser?
Yes, and not sure. Truthfully I didn't much care what UTG had because if I don't flop a big hand or a nice draw I'm probably gone. PokerRoom may not have many tables going, but the players that are there are terrible.
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A'aag
Old 07-19-2005, 04:49 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Worm
How often do you want to be drawing to an ace which could quite possibly be dominated?
Almost never. This is a situation where I don't mind.
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TylerK
Old 07-19-2005, 04:53 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Worm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Worm
Not only did you cold call preflop, you called both the flop bet and turn bet with no pair and no draw.
I think he knows what he did. That doesn't really answer anything. I don't think this is as clear-cut as some of you guys are making it out to be.
Why is this not clear cut? How often do you want to be drawing to an ace which could quite possibly be dominated? Cold calling w/ ATs, calling down (unimproved) in a multiway pot is just bleeding chips. He got lucky, I bet if he misses his Ace on the river and posted the hand everyone is calling him an idiot.
The PFR dumped his hand and nobody else has shown any particular strength. Even if just his ten is live, he probably has close to odds to draw to it.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
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koolmoe
Old 07-19-2005, 05:40 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Worm
Why is this not clear cut? How often do you want to be drawing to an ace which could quite possibly be dominated?
How often do you want to be folding when the pot is more than 10 bets and you have a chance to win it?
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-19-2005, 05:50 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 I believe 67s has a better equity when cold calling than ATs. He's also less likely to be dominated.


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chardrian
Old 07-19-2005, 06:08 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Fold preflop.

Fold the Flop.

Fold the Turn.

Call the River.
I don't mind the call preflop - you had 3 BBs and 1 SB in the hand before the cards were even dealt. Two in front of you have 2bet and 2BBs and the SB still behind you to act so you are fairly certain this is going be a big pot with a drawable hand. But I also don't mind folding preflop either.

Now the flop... you have three more small bets added to the mix. $3 into almost a $50 pot. Somewhere around 15 to 1. Although it's possible you have no outs, I'd give you 3-4. 6 outs for A or T, 1 out for runner runner str8 minus 3-4 outs for flush negating two of your outs and the fact that hands like 8T, 8A, 9J etc have you dominated even if an "out" hits. So the flop call is another iffy but playable one for me.

Now the turn... Fold. $6 into about $70 with now I'm saying at best 3 outs (there are too many made hands that are beating you now) - at this point I don't think you have the odds anymore.

River .... Call.
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koolmoe
Old 07-19-2005, 06:21 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I believe 67s has a better equity when cold calling than ATs. He's also less likely to be dominated.
That's true, but misleading since some of the 67s equity comes on boards that are particularly difficult to play. IOW, you will be folding some of that equity away on flops that are easier to continue on with overcards.

Also, domination is a little bit less of a concern when the UTG raiser is willing to go away so easily when he misses the flop. Even dominated, ATs typically has enough equity (needs only 25% three-way) to call in that spot preflop given the poster behind.

I do agree that preflop is the place to get away from this hand, and I would have folded preflop without a specific read. Actually, the cold call by 67s would have been pretty scary to me unless he was a confirmed tard.
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ChezJ
Old 07-19-2005, 07:08 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 by my count he had at least 13:1 to call on the turn. discounting the clubs, he had 4 overcard outs at that point and only needed 10.5:1 to continue.
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Les_Worm
Old 07-19-2005, 07:31 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_Worm
Why is this not clear cut? How often do you want to be drawing to an ace which could quite possibly be dominated?
How often do you want to be folding when the pot is more than 10 bets and you have a chance to win it?
It depends on how big the chance is that I will win.
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A'aag
Old 07-19-2005, 10:07 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koolmoe
Actually, the cold call by 67s would have been pretty scary to me unless he was a confirmed tard.
Definitely not scary with this guy- I have a lot of hands on him. He's the type of SLAP who routinely cold calls alone with anything remotely playable. If he was better he might have check/raised the flop or bet out, ending this discussion before it began. But then again if he was better he would have folded preflop, and then I would have also...
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moiraine57
Old 07-20-2005, 02:20 AM #26 (permalink)  
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Bottom line, for what it is worth, I would not have called on the flop, turn or river, because I would believe that even if I had hit my ace or ten, it would not be good.

I agree that it is a big pot, but IMHO what is your feeling that you are beaten? If I am 99.9% sure I am beaten, I do not keep dumping money in "because I have a chance to win a monster pot."

To my mind, that is throwing good money after bad unless you are convinced your outs are good. I could easily see a situation where you have only runner runner outs after the flop, and zero outs after the turn.

Again, if there was something your opponents that articulated to you that they were weak/moronic, then your play makes sense. But taken as a single hand at a single table, your play doesn't really seem stellar.
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A'aag
Old 07-20-2005, 02:52 AM #27 (permalink)  
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99.9% is saying a lot. I have six obvious outs, plus runner runner, which I have discounted to no more than four. The pot is still laying me more than I need to make these calls. It's a gamble I expect to lose a majority of the time, but I don't need to win anywhere close to a majority of the time to show a profit. If I'm drawing dead, then I'm just going to have to lose this time. This has been beaten to death- I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.
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