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I played this right...yes?

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Hate

09-08-2005, 08:07 PM Post subject: I played this right...yes?

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 322

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A

, Q

. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero caps, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (23 SB) 2

, 7

, 2

(5 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (14 BB) T

(5 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, Button folds.

River: (18 BB) 5

(4 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero caps, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 31 BB

Results in white below:
SB has 7d 7s (full house, sevens full of twos).
UTG+1 has Kd Kh (two pair, kings and twos).
Hero has Ah Qh (flush, ace high).
Outcome: SB wins 31 BB.

SB is a moron btw... 88% VPIP

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jmontis

09-08-2005, 08:21 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 1,296

eh, kind of results oriented, would you have posted this if you won the hand?

You were basically drawing dead after the flop, but you did have odds to see a turn card, which gave you the flush draw. Good play

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

thenonsequitur

09-08-2005, 08:27 PM Post subject: Re: I played this right...yes?

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

You played too passively post-flop.

Raise the flop primarily for two reasons:

1) The pot is big; you want to knock out the button, giving you a better chance of winning of you hit an A or Q (and giving you better position).
2) A flop raise might get you a free card on the turn, if you want one.

Raise the turn primarily for value (you have a strong draw in a big pot with a big field--you have a lot of pot equity and great implied odds).

Hate

09-08-2005, 08:44 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 322

jmontis, probably not. Basically, i'm not asking whether i should have stayed in to hit my draw, but whether there was anyway a normal (not psychic) human being could have folded that putting him on a FH. Also, getting insight on these kind of draws is always helpful

Btw, to illustrate just how much of an idiot SB is, a few hands later (can't be bothered digging up the HH) I get AT in LP, limp in, flop 2 pair. we cap it between us, with one other. Turn is a T giving me the nut FH, he bets, MP calls, i raise, he 3-bets, MP folds, i cap. River is also capped (he thinks a bit) and he turns over... A7o (there were no sevens on the board...just an A and TT).

Fnord

09-08-2005, 08:52 PM Post subject: Re: I played this right...yes?

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenonsequitur

Raise the flop

Raising this flop is taking money and setting fire to it.

o The pre-flop action is really fishy, however it still gives us cause to consider if our 6 over-card outs are any good. As first in, UTG's limp-re-raise has a pretty reasonable chance of being AA/KK/AK (my SWAG would be 40%, but knowing more about him would drastically effect that number.)
o There is only one player you're realistically going to knock out as everyone else is already in for 1 bet
o The SB betting into a large field on a draw free board is scary. At worst I put him on 7x.
o Getting 3-bet would really suck, but you have to call becuase you're pot-struck to see a turn.

Raises like this are pretty typical medicore TAgg plays. Players learn they need to be more aggro but pick bad spots, over-estimate equity, over-estimate the chance of a free card online and don't consider the impact it will have on later street play. It's OK to just call sometimes. Really.

The pre-flop cap depends on what I think about UTG. Flop is an easy call and it's not even close. Same for the turn. I might not cap the river, although you're getting 2:1 making it close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

thenonsequitur

09-08-2005, 09:28 PM Post subject: Re: I played this right...yes?

#6 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

The pre-flop action is really fishy, however it still gives us cause to consider if our 6 over-card outs are any good. As first in, UTG's limp-re-raise has a pretty reasonable chance of being AA/KK/AK (my SWAG would be 40%, but knowing more about him would drastically effect that number.)

Getting 3-bet would really suck, but you have to call becuase you're pretty post-struck to see a turn.

I didn't see the limp-re-raise (didn't read the hand history carefully enough), and that alone would probably change my mind to just a call. Also I didn't consider the SB 3-betting to be a likely possibility.

Even taking the above into account, you have convinced me that I am heavily over-estimating my equity here. Points well-taken. I tend to be too agressive with marginal draws.

Is the turn okay for a raise though, or is that also throwing away money? Increasing variance for no good reason?

Fnord

09-08-2005, 09:31 PM Post subject: Re: I played this right...yes?

#7 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenonsequitur

Is the turn okay for a raise though, or is that also throwing away money? Increasing variance for no good reason?

I would call because the pot is still multi-way (not leaving a lot of fold equity) and if we hit I'd really like the SB to lead into the field. A 3-bet would also really hurt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

jmontis

09-08-2005, 09:51 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 1,296

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hate

There is no way in hell I would have guessed him for a full house, I figured one guy had an overpair, then at the end I saw KK and 77 for a boat. These hands are so far and few between, that just reinforces why you should only draw with very good odds, and even then you won't always win if you make your draw.

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

floppydonker

09-09-2005, 04:05 PM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 26

Quote:

You were basically drawing dead after the flop, but you did have odds to see a turn card, which gave you the flush draw. Good play

How many outs would you give him on this hand? I am just curious if I am wrong when counting outs with a hand like this one.

limpflop

Fnord

09-09-2005, 04:07 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by limpflop

How many outs would you give him on this hand? I am just curious if I am wrong when counting outs with a hand like this one.

No f'n way you can ever fold over-cards getting like 25:1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

pokerfanatic

09-09-2005, 04:09 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: 6max limit tables

Posts: 1,968

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by limpflop

How many outs would you give him on this hand? I am just curious if I am wrong when counting outs with a hand like this one.

No f'n way you can ever fold over-cards getting like 25:1.

OC = 6 outs, plus Back door FD = about 1 or 2 outs given it's runners, so looking at 7 or 8 outs about so 5.6:1 or 4.75:1 Why wouldn't you call with the odds?

“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord

Fnord

09-09-2005, 04:18 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

It's 25:1 bro and it's looking like you have more than 2 outs no matter what kind of K-Mart discount shopper you are. Call and don't blow any more brain cells on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

floppydonker

09-10-2005, 03:10 AM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2005

Posts: 26

Thats true, even with my conservative count of outs I would stil have to call with it being 25 to 1. I just always wonder if I count outs too conservatively. I wouldve only counted 4 of the six for the A and K and 1 for the backdoor flush, so 5 outs. Im sure I wouldve called, but I was just curious about how many outs there were.

limpflop

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