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I have trouble with this kind of hand

  
 
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JJDylan
Old 08-08-2005, 08:22 PM     Post subject: I have trouble with this kind of hand #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, 9.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB raises, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 8, J, 8 (4 players)
SB bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.50 BB) 6 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB


I never know what to do when i get in situations like this....i dont really have a read on the guy, but raises out of the SB always feel weird to me.

Am i head often enough on the flop to make this an ok play? And if im not ahead, can i make a better hand fold often enough to make betting the turn a good play? and finally....save a bet and fold the river, or is calling here ok
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elipsesjeff
Old 08-08-2005, 08:25 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 It really does look pretty good. Most players aren't raising from the SB with a J in their hand (unless they have JJ) and you really do want to see a showdown here with your cheap hand. Your opponent either has two over cards or an overpair in this situation, you win with one and you lose to the other.

I would play it the exact same, considering you aren't folding to a raise in this situation anyway. If anything you might have got him to attempt a bluff in this situation.


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TylerK
Old 08-08-2005, 08:54 PM #3 (permalink)  
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This hand is MUCH easier to play if you raise preflop.
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Fnord
Old 08-08-2005, 10:03 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
This hand is MUCH easier to play if you raise preflop.
Why? Granted, I raise here pre-flop too but for mostly other reasons...

My line here is typically call, call, call. Usually bet if checked to.
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Gatlin Dan
Old 08-09-2005, 03:51 AM #5 (permalink)  
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If you bet the flop here, why not bet the turn and check or check/call the river? It costs the same and he pays to see the last card instead of getting a free look at it?

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Room
Old 08-09-2005, 02:24 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I bet the turn, fold to a raise. When you are ahead here, you dont want to give a free card to overcards. When you are behind to an over pair, he will likely c/r and you can fold. When he has a J, he may either c/r or call. If he c/r, again we are folding, however, if he calls, we can re-evaluate our river decision based on the card and whether to value bet if we believe that we have the best hand on the end.
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Demiparadigm
Old 08-16-2005, 12:41 AM #7 (permalink)  
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The flop is good, but you have to bet the turn here. You have a marginal hand, and can't afford to give a free card if you are best.
Betting the turn and checking behind on the river costs the same, doesn't give a free card to a worse hand, and may get a slightly better hand to fold.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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moiraine57
Old 08-16-2005, 01:04 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
It really does look pretty good. Most players aren't raising from the SB with a J in their hand (unless they have JJ) and you really do want to see a showdown here with your cheap hand.
What about A-J sooted? Even J-10 sooted? Play works for A-J sooted because it gets BB out...4 handed is the most I would like to see with A-J. It works with J-10 because you are building enormous pot for a great multi-way hand. You're guaranteed to see a flop at least 4 or 5 handed with a great multi-way starting hand.

Thinking out loud here, assuming your opponents suck, wouldn't it be worth it to raise in the SB with marginal hands such as these , and get your opps fearing you?

You're repping a strong hand with the SB raise with A-J, and can possibly bet out on an undercard flop and get some folds.

You also have people fearing your potential monster on the flop, and if you have J-10, can possibly check-raise for your free card on the turn.

What thinketh you all? The more I think about it, the more it seems like a great strategy.

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Demiparadigm
Old 08-16-2005, 01:18 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Any time you have great pot equity AND great implied odds with a good multiway hand, a raise is correct in the blinds. This still really only applies to suited face cards down to maybe JTs.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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euphoricism
Old 08-16-2005, 01:36 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
This hand is MUCH easier to play if you raise preflop.
Why? Granted, I raise here pre-flop too but for mostly other reasons...
Becuase I can represent the J or better especially if he bets on the flop.

I didn't pay attention to the stakes, but at /2
Typically you see: I raise from the button, he generally only calls from the SB. If he has the J, bets from SB, and you raise, he's probably going into call-down mode. If he doesnt have the J, you have more credit in repping it, and he might check/fold.

I think this is a definite raise from the button. For this reason coupled with the odds for your set.

Edit: OP'r, if you are going to play it how you did, bet that turn. Fold to a re-raise. Probably check behind on the river if he doesnt fold.
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Demiparadigm
Old 08-16-2005, 01:44 AM #11 (permalink)  
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The raise preflop is for value. You have a good hand with good position. Being able to win through agression is a good bonus.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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euphoricism
Old 08-16-2005, 03:18 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Well, 9's are still really pretty set-it-or-forget it cards for me.. I guess you could have the over pair on the flop, but as for betting for 'value'.. i dunno. I could be wrong here, but in my experience they really dont have very much inherent value.

I think i might just be misunderstanding the concept of 'raising for value' but its probably a terminology barrier more than a conceptual one.

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