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I have a couple Q's for you limit xperts

  
 
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Jager
Old 01-28-2008, 08:47 AM     Post subject: I have a couple Q's for you limit xperts #1 (permalink)  
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1. I read somewhere that in 6max limit you should be a winner with 1 pair hands, is this true( I am losing at a good clip)?

2. I also seem to be completely lost playing small PPs, it does not seem to be profitable to call preflop to set mine, is this true?

3. My BB is losing (.14) per hand, I think this seems reasonable, is it or should it be lower?

4. I seem to be losing a ton in the SB, any tips for SB play(ie how wide of a range should I be raising), especially SBvBB?

Thanks in advance.
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Jibalob
Old 01-28-2008, 04:57 PM     Post subject: Re: I have a couple Q's for you limit xperts #2 (permalink)  
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Alot of your questions revolve around blind play which is a rather complex topic, I have tried to give some short and sweet answers below but feel free to ask additional questions if you would like myself and others to go into mopre detail:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jager
1. I read somewhere that in 6max limit you should be a winner with 1 pair hands, is this true( I am losing at a good clip)?

Depends.. at tight tables I would say yes but on tables with 5 people seeing every flop then less so.

2. I also seem to be completely lost playing small PPs, it does not seem to be profitable to call preflop to set mine, is this true?

Set mining is pretty much no existant unless you are in a particularly wild game where you get ALOT of aggression post-flop. I have only ever pllayed in a few games that fit this description.

PPs in SHLHE should pretty much always be raised / 3-bet preflop in order to get the pot heads up, or to take initiative in the hand so you can take it down un-improved postflop

Low pairs have very very little value in early position and should just be mucked in most situations


3. My BB is losing (.14) per hand, I think this seems reasonable, is it or should it be lower?

I just lost my entire db so I have no basis for comparison but off the top of my head (0.14) doesn't seem bad at all. It does really depend on what stakes you are playing and your game selectionthough. From memory my BB was losing just under 0.1 at 0.5/1 but closer to 0.2 at 5/10

4. I seem to be losing a ton in the SB, any tips for SB play(ie how wide of a range should I be raising), especially SBvBB?

This obviously depends on your opponent more than the cards you are dealt. If someone if folding their BB to an SB steal as much as 35% of the time you can raise almost any 2 profitably. If your opponent is particularly good post-flop then you should be less inclined to steal as you will be playing a good player out of position for the rest of the hand.

If your opponent is extremely loose passive then it may just be better to complete the sb rather than raise with the very bottom of your sb opening range.

If you are not opening and there are already limpers/raisers before you be very VERY selective with your raising hands. Position is king in LHE. I would be more inclined to raise hands like JTs rather than AK from the sb with multi-limpers, obviously this is not applicable in the situations where you are able to 3-bet.


Thanks in advance.
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elipsesjeff
Old 01-28-2008, 05:53 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Jager,

I was able to dig this image up from a couple of years ago from my 10/20 6max days:

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7721/100k2fk.jpg

The 10/20 stats I realy liked, except I think my SB could have been a little better (I think -.07 is optimal there, -.15 in the BB is damn near perfect).

Also, I made plenty of preflop guidelines in my post here:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...on-t65026.html

Those were all from around the same time as that the image above. In general with pocket pairs you need 5-1 pot odds in a LHE game to correctly set mine.


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euphoricism
Old 01-28-2008, 06:15 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Jib covered it pretty well. Only things I'll add are ... the point of pocket pairs is to get them heads up with position as much as possible. Figure theyre about 50/50 to win, with position you make the profit, and OOP you lose it.

The BB and SB numbers should be within -.08 (SB) and -.16 (BB)
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Jager
Old 01-28-2008, 06:21 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Well so far I have been playing 5/10. I made a few adjustments from my nl game from that exact link Jeff, and the 2p2 articles on defending your BB. I am winning just under 1.0 bb/100, but I feel like I am not running particularly well and if I can improve my SB play I think I could push this to ~1.5 bb/100.

Thanks again for the hellp guys.
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DrivingDog
Old 01-28-2008, 07:19 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I appreciate your questions about playing pp, etc., but with regards to your questions about stats, here is a brief tutorial on an often-mentioned-but-rarely-fully-understood-concept: VARIABILITY.

First thing is, very few stats are going to be reliable over small sample sizes. Over 100 hands, you can get a good idea of a player's VPIP, PFR%, and AF (which is why these are the stats that are often included when people post hands for analysis).

Things like WSD and W$SD need about 500 and 1000 hands, respectively, to become statistically reliable.

Borer, Mak, and Tannenbaum give figures for how many hands are required to get statistcally reliable data on all kinds of other stats, like Won Showdown When Raised Turn, etc. so buy their book if you're interested in that.

Next is most germane to your question about winrate out of the blinds. As your position moves from UTG to BB, your variability in winrate per hand will increase because you are generally playing weaker, drawing hands in later position and the blinds. Conversely, you will play more hands from later position and the blinds which will decrease you're overall variability. The upshot is that performance from all positions should become statistically reliable after about 50-100k total hands played *

Finally, you need at least 200k hands to get an accurate idea of your overall winrate, more for smaller win/loss rates and less for higher ones. For example, if you play well enough to win 1 BB/100 hands, your average (expected) profit over 200k hands will be 2000BB. However, because winrate is so variable, there is a ~ 5% chance that you will fail to even break even! The other side of the coin is that there is a ~ 5% chance you will win more than 4000 BB. **

I've had swings of 100BB up and down over 10-25k hands so often that it no longer surprises, elates, or discourages me. Ok maybe it does a little, but the point is I don't quit playing if I have a losing month and I don't retire from my day job if I have a good month.

To answer specific questions:

1) I can never seem to get PT to calculate this correctly, but what Jibalob said is good advice.

2) Small pp usually win in only one of two ways: a) getting HU against someone who is tight enough to fold to preflop+flop aggression if they miss; b) getting in cheap preflop (5:1 odds or better) and hitting a set. Playing these hands in other situations is just not going to be profitable.

3) What i said about stats above. My BB in the last 100k hands is around -.17, but in the last 25k hands it's -.21, even though i've had a nice run in general in that period, and I haven't played any differently out of the BB that I'm aware of.

As far as i've been told, BB -.16 is excellent, -.18 is good, -.20 is marginal, < -.20 is poor

4) SB -.08 is excellent, -.10 is good, -.12 is marginal, <-.12 is poor.

A final bit of advice is that you should never get complacent with your game. Just because you're winning consistently doesn't mean you can't play better and win more. So keep studying the game because you can always improve.


* by 'reliable' i mean with an estimated margin of error of +/- 0.02 BB - but please don't quote me on this because it is just a reasonable guess based on my experience with variability in my own databases - i could go through my databases and do the math to get a more precise estimate but i'm too lazy.

** assuming a standard deviation of 17BB/100 hands in winrate, fairly typical for 6max.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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